Kemper Mini?

  • OneEng1 I totally get your line of thought and generally it is very rational and logical, by "modern economy" standards (where growth and profit is the ultimate goal). However it requires one more factor: CK would need to _want_ to do it. Kemper is on the market for many years and I'm pretty sure that if CK was thinking like you outlined he'd not deliver Stage but something like above described Mini. They can do this any time, to be honest (and I'd buy one for sure!). But not all companies are constantly chasing growth and expansion, fortunately. Some companies, especially privately owned, just want to stay small, are fine with what they have, like to have great relationship with customers, as long as they can make a decent living out of it and have fun while doing so. Kemper had at least 4 - 5 years to create killer, low cost, made in far east, mass-produced unit which would bring them fat $$$, but they didn't do so. So to me it looks like as long as don't have to, they just don't want to do it, and they don't care about having even more $$$ as much. Their goals and values seem to be different. And this is fine and actually quite admirable.

    Well, you are right in many respects.


    My assumption is that all companies desire to move up in the food chain and that even private companies with a single owner want to maximize their profit.


    Honestly, I have been doing this so long that it is alien to me to think about any other strategy than market dominance ;).



    My only concern with WiFi is that it requires more knowledge to setup. You can get a combo wifi/bt module (embedded) today for around $15.00, you can get just a wifi or just a bluetooth for about half that though. Bluetooth is really simple to pair with.


    I hadn't thought of making an attachment for the existing rack and head units though ;). That might be a nice bonus since there is a large existing customer base that would flock to buy the adapter ;).

  • I didn‘t talk about an adapter. This is too far away from the core business and can be done with standard 3rd party hardware.


    I meant that the app would also work with modelers being connected to an existing network using ethernet cables. Most mixers are connected to switches / WiFi access points and are controlled via ethernet-based protocols. So could the Kemper be, the Kemper Mini could use a built-in WiFi module, whereas older hardware could be connected to a WiFi access point. It does not matter internally as long as there is an ethernet SOCKET. The physical layer, the ethernet INTERFACE uses does not matter for the implementation of the protocol itself. :)


    However, if they do it, I hope they work TCP based, otherwise syncing / handshaking is a pain. Maybe they even build upon a standard communication protocol that can be consumed by other hardware. Why reinvent the wheel ... :saint:

  • So you want them to chop off 6 inches from the Kemper Stage which saves them a few bucks on chassis and footswitches, and sell it for $1k less... :/

    Edited once, last by yeky83 ().

  • I didn‘t talk about an adapter. This is too far away from the core business and can be done with standard 3rd party hardware.


    I meant that the app would also work with modelers being connected to an existing network using ethernet cables. Most mixers are connected to switches / WiFi access points and are controlled via ethernet-based protocols. So could the Kemper be, the Kemper Mini could use a built-in WiFi module, whereas older hardware could be connected to a WiFi access point. It does not matter internally as long as there is an ethernet SOCKET. The physical layer, the ethernet INTERFACE uses does not matter for the implementation of the protocol itself. :)


    However, if they do it, I hope they work TCP based, otherwise syncing / handshaking is a pain. Maybe they even build upon a standard communication protocol that can be consumed by other hardware. Why reinvent the wheel ... :saint:

    FYI there's a WiFi module in the Kemper Stage, see photos here: https://www.thegearpage.net/bo…ge-this-and-that.2190614/

  • So you want them to chop off 6 inches from the Kemper Stage which saves them a few bucks on chassis and footswitches, and sell it for $1k less... :/

    To be clear, I think it would be a good product idea that would make them money. I am perfectly happy with my Kemper Rack and FC. Even the Kemper Stage offers nothing for me since I like the lack of cable clutter I get with the FC and Rack.


    What I think is that the sharing of existing IP to create a new product would make a good business case.


    Your statement seems to imply that you believe that the total cost of a product is measured by the number of inches in its length .... which is pretty far from the truth.


    Ground up development of a new piece of hardware with firmware costs millions of dollars. This has to be amortized over the units sold to recoup that investment. Reuse of existing work is, by far, the best return on investment.


    Until your unit counts get into the hundreds of thousands or millions, the development and maintenance costs of the product are a large part of the unit price.


    I also believe that the money made by such a product would pay for the development of a very expensive next generation platform .... which Kemper will need eventually as parts become obsolete.

  • I haven't implied any such thing. You proposed a "Kemper Mini" that's basically the same as the Kemper Stage other than being slightly smaller for $1k less. You realize then no one will buy a Kemper Stage anymore, right? lol And it'll eat into the sales of the other Kempers too? And after the main Kemper products get priced out of the market with your proposed Kemper Mini, they'd need to sell 5 times their current sales volume just to break even. If they came out with a Kemper Mini, it wouldn't be the slightly smaller Kemper Stage that you're suggesting they make.

  • I haven't implied any such thing. You proposed a "Kemper Mini" that's basically the same as the Kemper Stage other than being slightly smaller for $1k less. You realize then no one will buy a Kemper Stage anymore, right? lol And it'll eat into the sales of the other Kempers too? And after the main Kemper products get priced out of the market with your proposed Kemper Mini, they'd need to sell 5 times their current sales volume just to break even. If they came out with a Kemper Mini, it wouldn't be the slightly smaller Kemper Stage that you're suggesting they make.

    This is an understandable concern; however, if you sell 10 times more of something that costs you less, you make many times more money.


    GM only makes a relatively few Corvettes, and they make great margin on them; however, that isn't where they make their big money from. Trucks and SUV's are the big profit makers in both GM and Ford.


    So lets make this product even easier. Lets say it has no ability to edit in place. It simply requires Rig Manager to edit anything and requires a USB connection for that (this will also lower the cost a bit since it wont need a radio module for wifi or bt). All it can do is act as a gig rig. It also can't do MIDI, can't profile, and can only accept 2 external pedals. I didn't explicitly state the feature list, I was more interested in how to re-use the existing IP.


    About 10 years ago, Behringer disrupted the market with a digital mixer that offered such a high value to feature ratio that it took over the entire market segment dwarfing all previous competitors in that space.


    A Kemper Mini (which I didn't start the thread on btw), could be a market disrupter in a market space (sub 1K) that Kemper simply has no current product line in.


    ... and I would be willing to bet that IF they do come out with a Kemper MINI, it retains the same ... or nearly identical ... LCD and general Foot controller UI they currently have. It simply would not make any sense at all to make wide spread changes to the firmware to accommodate a different LCD and different user flow.

  • So Kemper should follow Behringer in a race to the bottom? (And they're still manufacturing in Germany?)


    That's not going to happen


    The bottom line is your asking Kemper to make a product that sounds as good as their premium product, that costs probably the same to manufacture as their premium product, for $1000 less. You're making a very poor business case

  • The general idea you're putting forth is great -- use existing IP and BOM to make a sub $1k device, which would enter Kemper into a new price bracket and sell many units, profit!


    It's just that the specifics you suggest don't make much sense. Your previous suggestion was basically the Kemper Stage for $1k less, and now it's too far the other way with a multi-effects unit that can't be edited at a gig... would be pretty frustrating to use, and dunno why Kemper would want to make such a lame device.

  • The general idea you're putting forth is great -- use existing IP and BOM to make a sub $1k device, which would enter Kemper into a new price bracket and sell many units, profit!


    It's just that the specifics you suggest don't make much sense. Your previous suggestion was basically the Kemper Stage for $1k less, and now it's too far the other way with a multi-effects unit that can't be edited at a gig... would be pretty frustrating to use, and dunno why Kemper would want to make such a lame device.

    Possibly so. Although it is inevitable that Kemper must do this, or the competition will .... and when they do, they will capture the market before Kemper can respond with a product offering of their own.


    At that point, Kemper will simply be FORCED into lowering the price on the stage to compete with what is out in the market .... or see sales slump quickly.


    From here: https://www.fractalaudio.com/fm3/


    Note, that if Fractal could actually release the thing in volume, they would have a winner on their hands. I would argue that they have crippled the stage interface so severely that it isn't practical for gigging, but it is still a modern AxeFX III at less than 1K .... albeit with a crippled user interface.

  • GM only makes a relatively few Corvettes, and they make great margin on them; however, that isn't where they make their big money from. Trucks and SUV's are the big profit makers in both GM and Ford.

    Then they heard you and came up with the Chevrolet Spark ... and I'm afraid it's not a huge success story. And there's side-effects like brand devaluation you might want to take into account as well. Porsche for example doesn't have any economic troubles just because they don't offer budget products. No brand devaluation and no catastrophic losses either. ;)


    There's so many different approaches to how to maintain relevant and strong in a given market. One of the things that matter a lot but aren't always obvious ... customer support. Try to get decent, "personal" customer support from any of the big players ... and then call Kemper and be pleasantly surprised. This is a pretty massive cost factor as well, especially if a company tried to increase sales tenfold (as you suggested).

  • "it is still a modern AxeFX III at less than 1K .... albeit with a crippled user interface"

    You have it completely backwards. The FM3 shares the exact same UI as the Axe-Fx III. And it isn't the Axe-Fx III at $1k, as it has a fraction of the power, I/O, available amp and effect blocks, etc. So... completely backwards.


    Anyone can say "Kemper should come out with something for the lower priced market." Great, but what and how? It's the specifics that are worth having fun discussing, and your specifics continue to make no sense... which honestly is a strange sight to see from someone who's pulling out their product manager credentials.

  • I actually don't even think about the price... what I find important is the size and the weight, so it could be used for situation where a minimal equipment is needed - with maximal sound.

    I would be willing to pay for that.

    never thought that I would like the Kemper that much...! 8|

  • IMO they fucked up twice


    First the Ax8 had a terrible interface, garbage screen and they skimped out on dual amps/tone match block and other things.


    FM3....3 footswitches ....I actually preferred the Ax8 just for the extra footswitches!!


    And make the patches compatible ffs ...drop out blocks if they can't handle the CPU but it seems like such a shoot yourself in the foot situation.



    Line 6/Neural got this right (even though I'm not sure about the rotary footswitches yet hahah)


    Only thing that pisses me off is the loading of 1000 IR's on the QC...and some certain IR vendors have been exposed that they don't even know whats going on when it comes to shooting IR's


    I know some in the fractal just sound hideous and could be pulled out ......anything muddy or honky or comb filter like just get it out of the unit.


    They would be much better getting the MBritts of the world and pro players in a room and paying them to cut down the bulk.

  • "it is still a modern AxeFX III at less than 1K .... albeit with a crippled user interface"

    You have it completely backwards. The FM3 shares the exact same UI as the Axe-Fx III. And it isn't the Axe-Fx III at $1k, as it has a fraction of the power, I/O, available amp and effect blocks, etc. So... completely backwards.


    Anyone can say "Kemper should come out with something for the lower priced market." Great, but what and how? It's the specifics that are worth having fun discussing, and your specifics continue to make no sense... which honestly is a strange sight to see from someone who's pulling out their product manager credentials.

    I am OK with you (or others) believing that my suggestion "makes no sense". I am fine with your critique; however, I can't fail to notice your lack of substantive content on your own suggestions.


    The fact that I am a product manager does not make me right btw. It does make me knowledgeable about how to make a profitable product lineup though.

  • Then they heard you and came up with the Chevrolet Spark ... and I'm afraid it's not a huge success story. And there's side-effects like brand devaluation you might want to take into account as well. Porsche for example doesn't have any economic troubles just because they don't offer budget products. No brand devaluation and no catastrophic losses either. ;)


    There's so many different approaches to how to maintain relevant and strong in a given market. One of the things that matter a lot but aren't always obvious ... customer support. Try to get decent, "personal" customer support from any of the big players ... and then call Kemper and be pleasantly surprised. This is a pretty massive cost factor as well, especially if a company tried to increase sales tenfold (as you suggested).

    Porsche absolutely had serious economic troubles. That is why VW group now owns them. Interesting that you would pick this example ;).


    I'll give you the Spark though. Bringing a super subcompact Korean design to the US was a bad idea. Wrong product for the market.


    As far as brand devaluation, I don't think a sub 1K product would devalue the KPA line at all. It would simply be smaller and less feature filled than its bigger and more expensive siblings. It would still sound just as good.

  • I actually don't even think about the price... what I find important is the size and the weight, so it could be used for situation where a minimal equipment is needed - with maximal sound.

    I would be willing to pay for that.

    That is an interesting perspective. It is mine as well. As I stated, I wouldn't give up my Rack and foot controller for anything. I consider it the ultimate gig rig (and I have owned quite a few). I wouldn't think that we would be the biggest consumers of a product like the Kemper Mini; however, we might be the initial biggest consumers.


    It is always nice when a product has a built in and locked in market (ie current KPA users).


    I am still thinking that getting a product out that is in the sub 1K range (especially if you can get it closer to $7-800), would have a much higher volume of sales. These sales would outweigh the current base of KPA owners by an order of magnitude I would think.

  • I am OK with you (or others) believing that my suggestion "makes no sense". I am fine with your critique; however, I can't fail to notice your lack of substantive content on your own suggestions.


    The fact that I am a product manager does not make me right btw. It does make me knowledgeable about how to make a profitable product lineup though.

    Sorry to be a naysayer, and you're right, I don't have much of an original idea wrt this topic. I think the often mentioned Kemper AmpStack-only pedal would make sense in terms of using existing IP and BOM to make a lower priced product... But I don't know how it would perform in the market with $300-400 amp pedals like the AmpliFirebox or the Iridium. Would be interested to hear your thoughts.