[Public Beta] PROFILER OS 8.0.0.21450

    Quote from lightbox

    Well, they are easy to handle on the "real ones", the actual pedals.

    Unfortunately, the Kemper Drive menu on the Profiler requires a second page for "Mix" and "Volume" while Full OC is lucky enough to have all parameters on a single page. Why does this make a difference (in handling)? Two reasons:


    1. The first page on the Profiler's screen is the most obvious. Second page is already a bit like opening the Okko Diablo Gain+ and using the internal pots. :D Well, at least a little bit.

    2. Quite a few stomp types have "Mix" and "Volume" parameters. Great, nice to have additional control if required but most of the time just left where it is (default). But sadly on an overdrive pedal it's such an important, I would even say integral part, that it doesn't immediately stick out like "Oh, what's that? Let me turn it and see what happens."

    Yup, that's an idea that I already had a few weeks ago.

    We put Drive, Tone and Volume on the first page, and all the rest on the next pages.


    I refused to do this at first place, because I like the two new parameters positioned on the first page.

    It might solve that "sweetspot" dilemma by disruption :)

    The truth is that the KD has much more volume boost than the original TS.

    But the result depends in the AMP setting as well.

    The question is here: What is the value of your AMP Gain at that moment?

    Quote from lightbox

    I've never claimed (and never will claim) that there is ONE "sweet spot", I didn't even come up with the term "sweet spot" in the first place.

    I tried very hard to explain and show how there are multiple ways to use a Klon pedal.

    The current (beta) presets provided by Kemper don't cover these "multiple ways" at all, not even remotely. And that's mostly because none of these presets "play" with the Volume parameter, which is very important to achieve most of the "multiple ways". Even if Jeff Beck uses just a touch of boost ... still all of them use it. Some more, some less.

    I was really surprised that NONE of the Kemper Drive (beta) presets uses the Volume parameter at all. And that's what I don't get at all. I've even read somewhere in this forum a short discussion about how the Kemper Drive's "clean component" seems too dominant/loud. And at least part of this effect is that NONE of the presets push a clean/cleanish amp anywhere into overdrive/saturation. All of these presets solely use the Gain knob for saturation. Again, none of the famous artists using Klons does that (apart from maybe James Hetfield's secret use of it).

    It was me, a few days ago I mentioned in a post that, keeping the volume at 0, the clean sound was a bit too loud to my ears. I know how to use overdrive pedals, rise the volume to boost the amp input, I simply asked the question because I have direct experiemce with a TS Style pedal (T-Rex Alberta) and a Timmy clone (Danelectro cto-1) and, even if both pedals have a part of unprocessed sound, it is not as loud as the Kemper drive.

    In any case, once You find the right balance between the overdrive volume and the amp gain the new drive sound beautifully... Another step up for our kemper! 8)

    Quote from ckemper

    Yup, that's an idea that I already had a few weeks ago.

    We put Drive, Tone and Volume on the first page, and all the rest on the next pages.

    For me this sounds great, but that's just me. :) Trying hard to keep others in mind, do you think it has serious negative implications on those who actually need the "Slim Down" (and Definition)? And yes, they are nice and innovative.

    I will likely never need it but I'm trying to be objective here (and will tell you in private that I don't care about others and want you to change it the way you suggested, hahaha) :D

    Quote from Vinny Burns

    Well, as it’s still a beta, I still think it’s probably inconvenient to have to use look up tables to see how to make whatever pedal you may be used to work and dial in your favourite pedals settings.

    Much simpler to just have separate pedal blocks where all the tone range and gain range match up perfectly with the named pedal.
    Keep the KD as well for people who like to mess about even further.

    Either way, the KD is a great tool to be added.

    Absolutely! This preset thing will be the cause of so many confusion of new (and current) users. "Why is there a preset with different name, but same sound?" will come up every week. How can I tell apart presets when saved in a rig? Presets mistaken ...


    If the original pedals were not important, no presets would be necessary in the KD! It just could be a very diverse overdrive, that people adjust by ear. But that is not the case. Many people just want to look up the pedals and settings (!!) their heroes use(d) and replicate it. Many want a familar look and same function / behaviour of the knobs as on the original pedal. Remember the confusion about the green scream, not having the same range of the knobs. No one has anything about access to a "mod" area / page, where more gain is available.


    In short: I would prefer separate pedal blocks :)

    Quote from gitarretyp

    100% this (I would also add the the volume matches the gain of the pedal, which is not the case now with most of the pedal blocks). I said the same thing several pages ago. Keep the KD for flexibility, but have separate pedal blocks that behave like the real pedal they are emulating. That would make everyone happy (flexibility) and avoid a lot of confusion about how to recreate the pedal tones you are accustomed to or want to copy from other players/idols, e.g., if I want to copy Bonamassa's Klon settings, I wouldn't currently be able to do that with the KD without a lot of guess work.

    A Profile is a snapshot of an amp with zero attempt to emulate how the controls function. Why is it OK there and not here?

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    I've been lobbying around here for a "Kemper Drive"—a master engine that covers key push needs—for years already. Yay, this one delivers. I'm very happy. If at all possible, sure a few more db's of output on tap for some of the cleaner kinds of usages would be appreciated. But honestly, in real-world, historical applications .. especially in a recording context.. those tones don't require the same kind of juice that many folks feel they're after when playing in a room alone. The Kemper and OC drives are already getting at the vintage tones. And if we're honest, while yes this is really cool, the Kemper with a bit of creative tweaking, Soft Shaper, EQ etc, was already getting the tones. And if we're really, really honest—and if I was CK & Co this is what would've annoyed or at least amused me about guitarists from day one—all the iconic, best drives—and I own or have owned them all—have always been way more alike than they are different from one another. But you know, we like what we like. So thanks for understanding. :)

    Quote from Ruefus

    A Profile is a snapshot of an amp with zero attempt to emulate how the controls function. Why is it OK there and not here?

    The KD is NOT a snapshot thing. It is quite the opposite! It combines different pedals with more controls than the orignal pedals have!


    Kemper sometimes gives us more (functionality) than we need:saint: This could be a good thing, but there also is the danger it becomes a “Gibson” thing (G force tuner, push pull knobs, wider fret board… more funtionality, but noone ordered). Some only want the proven sound and funtionality in an easy package.

    Quote from creative360

    all the iconic, best drives—and I own or have owned them all—have always been way more alike than they are different from one another.

    I agree with your entire post ... and especially the part I quoted.

    I think most of this is due to a widespread misconception of what an Overdrive pedal is supposed to do. In my (slightly generalized) opinion, an overdrive should be the device to use when you're happy with your amp, it's character and capabilities. Back in the day amps were single channel designs and if you wanted to push (overdrive) them, you boosted it, mostly into its own distortion. Added bonus was to have a touch of toneshaping before you boost your amp. Just a bit more "control". And you could still have a cleanish or crunchy tone when you kick the overdrive off.

    On the other hand, I think Distortion pedals more often than not are used to try and superimpose the sound of a totally different amp on the one you have. Like bedroom players trying to make their Hot Rod Deluxe sound like an angry Mesa Dual Rectifier or a chimey Vox AC30 or a Marshall Plexi or a Dumble. :D Yes, it might be a bit of a stretch what I write here ... but there is some truth to it, don't you think? Many pedal manufacturers even support this by advertising their distortion pedals accordingly.


    PS: Fuzz is yet another story I don't dare to touch at this point, even though they distort like hell ;)

    ckemper I am fascinated by the implementation of the feedforward circuits on the Klon, I cant recall other original overdrive circuits using this kind of design. I am not sure how much it would affect the tone, I only had a Klone I made myself and sold years ago, but ¿would a dry/wet knob make any actual sense as a feedforward network in a drive like the KD? I am inspired to implement a combo of a Voodo blues pedal with some ideas for a independant wet/dry feed forward circuit.

    The answer is 42

    Yeah the universe of vintage fuzz through the CK lens—In particular bias parameters—would be amazing. And the “chirpy” “blossom” of Zen/SOV/Ethos etc Dumble pedals .. a take on that would be cool. But for now, CK & Co have definitely hit the marks that are most important to me on a regular use basis. I haven’t experimented enough yet, but I think some of the extended parameters of the KD will enable me to forgo at least some of the pre- and post-stack equalizers that I’ve been using. It will be nice to free-up some of those slots.

    ckemper i think you made a marketing mistake there.
    You have sold to the users the promise that they could profile an infinity of amps and then get an infinity of different sounds (actually i don't think you ever said that, but it's what the users wanted to believe). I'm in the camp that speculate that the Profiler actually use a few well designed generic models whose parameters are set by the profiling process, then seasoned by some impulse response to account for the cab/mic part.
    This is fine by me since the result is so close from the real deal and this is still one of the best modelers on the market.
    But when doing OD, since pedal profiling seems not doable ATM, you gave users a (probably well designed) generic model and said to them, who believe there are an infinity of sounds you can get from infinitely differents ODs "they are basically all flavors of the same thing". While amp profiling was a clever way to "join them" with their belief that amps were made with fairy dust that you could somehow capture using a magical process, you are suddenly bringing everyone back on earth saying a diode is a diode is a diode than can be simplified with generic algos. They will never accept that.
    IMHO

    Quote from Alfahdj

    ckemper I am fascinated by the implementation of the feedforward circuits on the Klon, I cant recall other original overdrive circuits using this kind of design. I am not sure how much it would affect the tone, I only had a Klone I made myself and sold years ago, but ¿would a dry/wet knob make any actual sense as a feedforward network in a drive like the KD? I am inspired to implement a combo of a Voodo blues pedal with some ideas for a independant wet/dry feed forward circuit.

    Well, the Klon with its feed forward circuits is sucessfully aiming to model (!) the feedback circuit of the tube screamer and others.

    It adds some additional filtering however, that we simulate with the Slim Down parameter.

    In the end, the topology doesn't really matter, if it serves the needs, and you achieved your goals.

    Having said that, I can tell that we have our clean path independent from the distorted path. As seen in the Klon, there is no need to have it combined.

    Quote from Ibot39

    The KD is NOT a snapshot thing. It is quite the opposite! It combines different pedals with more controls than the orignal pedals have!


    Kemper sometimes gives us more (functionality) than we need:saint: This could be a good thing, but there also is the danger it becomes a “Gibson” thing (G force tuner, push pull knobs, wider fret board… more funtionality, but noone ordered). Some only want the proven sound and funtionality in an easy package.

    I'm well aware. You miss my point and perhaps that's my fault.

    A Profile makes no attempt to completely emulate an amp. Why would we expect new drives to do that? "I want a Klon with three knobs. Nothing more, nothing less. Needs to be the silver one." That's been done to death.

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    I'm more than pleased with the KD implementation. Now that I understand a little more about overdrive circuits - that most of them are variations on two or three basic themes - I'm loving the flexibility and elegance of this design. It seems wise to move away from use of the term "sweet spot" and simply use a term like "reference settings" when describing the presents. I, for one, like the idea that a Klon or BB reference setting will put me in the right neighborhood for a particular sound while giving me insight into how that pedal is designed. I'm not a huge fan of the "Slim Down" name for that parameter... I'm sure your team debated that one. Seems like "Focus" might be a better term since it is focusing the range stipulated by the Definition parameter.

    Quote from vjau75

    ckemper i think you made a marketing mistake there.
    You have sold to the users the promise that they could profile an infinity of amps and then get an infinity of different sounds (actually i don't think you ever said that, but it's what the users wanted to believe). I'm in the camp that speculate that the Profiler actually use a few well designed generic models whose parameters are set by the profiling process, then seasoned by some impulse response to account for the cab/mic part.
    This is fine by me since the result is so close from the real deal and this is still one of the best modelers on the market.
    But when doing OD, since pedal profiling seems not doable ATM, you gave users a (probably well designed) generic model and said to them, who believe there are an infinity of sounds you can get from infinitely differents ODs "they are basically all flavors of the same thing". While amp profiling was a clever way to "join them" with their belief that amps were made with fairy dust that you could somehow capture using a magical process, you are suddenly bringing everyone back on earth saying a diode is a diode is a diode than can be simplified with generic algos. They will never accept that.
    IMHO

    I agree. If I'm showing off my Kemper to another guitarist, they're going to be far more impressed if I say "it's got all these different overdrives modeled in there" as opposed to saying "it's got this drive stomp, where if you know what you're doing you can emulate any other overdrive, as long as you know what that overdrive is supposed to sound like".

    Keep the KD, but I think you're missing a trick if you don't have actual selectable stomp clones that behave only within the parameters of the original

    I had the chance to A/B test the KD presets with a Strat and the actual pedals in front of the KPA with a MBritt Fender Deluxe profile.
    - The KD feels and sounds like a real pedal in front of the Kemper. Thanks Kemper R&D!
    - The KD stomp sounds better than profiles baking these pedals with the amp, IMHO.
    - The KD presets sound pretty close “+95%+” to the settings of the actual pedals, detailed in the Addendum 8.0.
    - KD vs Blues Breaker, I’ve noticed that the BB has a warm subtle bottom end, that I was not able to reproduce with KD parameters available. This is perceivable specially using the neck and middle pickup, in the bass strings, playing either with fingers or pick. It’s not so evident in the treble strings, though.
    - KD vs KOT, similar difference in the warm bottom end, but not so pronounced compared to the BB.
    - KD’s King and BB beta settings have the drive maxed out. The KOT and BB setting I like has the drive/gain at 3 o’clock, by reducing the KD drive it gets more treble and more transparent than the actual KOT setting.


    It’s true that my pedal sample may have slight differences with CK’s actual pedals, even coming from the same batch, but if the official release could factor the differences I mentioned, or include a couple of KOT, BB presets with less drive than the Max out as point of reference, it would be much appreciated.

    Anyway, I think those differences would not be perceived in a band mix, it’s just the feeling between the player and the pedal. The KD may not be a perfect match to the real deal, but it is a very good clone with even more flexibly than most analog clones out there. If you don’t have the original pedals, there’s no need to spend big bucks in the real deal or even in an analog clone, unless you are a pedal collector or mojo is important for you.


    ckemper, what would be the right KD settings to get closer to the settings pictured below? (those are popular settings, btw) or what would be KD settings compared to KOT and BB unity settings or another point of reference? Please your advice.

    34537752-9103-4547-B84-C-A0-CB00-C28-CAB.jpg


    Quote from Syntek

    - The KD presets sound pretty close “+95%+” to the settings of the actual pedals, detailed in the Addendum 8.0.
    - KD vs Blues Breaker, I’ve noticed that the BB has a warm subtle bottom end, that I was not able to reproduce with KD parameters available. This is perceivable specially using the neck and middle pickup, in the bass strings, playing either with fingers or pick. It’s not so evident in the treble strings, though.

    great & detailed post, thank you :)


    have you tried increasing the Volume of the Kemper Drive to get a stronger bass response?

    Quote from stratdude

    Keep the KD, but I think you're missing a trick if you don't have actual selectable stomp clones that behave only within the parameters of the original

    following this 'logic', most of the parameters available in the AMPLIFIER slot would need to be removed as well.
    Changing the Definition of an amp was only possible by having a skilled technician 'mod' your amp, and that would be a change of the stock value to a new Definition value. Being able to smoothly adjust this on the fly is completely unheard of in the analog amp world - and it is one of the PROFILER's most powerful features IMHO.
    Same goes for the AMPLIFIER Compression, Clarity and Tube Shape to name other favourites of mine.

    Why impose the limitations of an analog device?