Harmonizer use defaults

    The manual reads: "The default User Scales are both blues scales - one major, and the other minor." I'm assuming they are talking about user scale 1 and user scale 2

    (I do understand what they are talking about when it reads to check both tonics)


    Which one is major voice 1 or 2? ( I could probably figure this out but hoping someone would know off the bat) Voice one are all negative intervals and voice 2 are positive intervals. I don't understand that. If one was major and one was minor why not show both the "default scales" as either positive or negative? If voice 1 was major, why would they assume you would want it lower than the tonic by default? I (as usual) must be misinterpreting something in the manual. I've used all kinds of harmonizers H910, IP33, TC electronic, line 6, GSP1101 and others I understand custom scales etc. but the wording and examples here are confusing.


    Also, can you delete any of the the 10 "built in" user scales? (5 voice 1 and 5 voice2) How many user scales can I store?

    Take a careful look:

    The manual reads: "The default User Scales are both blues scales - one major, and the other minor.

    (There are also voice one and two but I am speaking of default user scales not voices)


    On my Kemper, "User scale one and User scale two" are identical to "voice one and voice two" shown on page 190. If I pull up user scale 1 in either voice one or two the intervals will be like page 190 shown"voice 1". If I put user scale 2 in voice 1 or 2 it will look like "voice 2" shown on the page. Seems the manual is the one confused about scale 1&2 and called them voice 1&2.


    So the questions still remain, Which one is major, which is minor? I wonder if the wording is messed up and both "voices" shown here are actually "scales" and both can be major or minor and are showing harmony under tonic for scale one (shown as voice one) and harmony over tonic for scale 2(shown as voice 2) This is my guess?

    The manual reads "The default user scales are both blues scales, one major one minor" but maybe it meant one over the tonic and one under the tonic?


    Can they be deleted? I don't want to but don't see how if I wanted to. (I'll NEVER use the octave over ones.) Maybe the 10 default presets (2 "scales" with 5 octave variations each) can't be deleted but when you add more the could?

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    tobe honest, I gave up on using user scales a long time ago as they are just so awkward to get your head around. I haven’t actually tried to program one since this thread. Life’s too short ?


    Recalibrate user scales

    In most other units, It's not too bad. Sometimes a set scale doesn't get you what you want even though it is harmonically "correct". Sometimes I write harmonies just using my ears and to give me the harmony to match I must create a custom scale. In every live rig of mine for the last 30 years a diatonic harmonizer is a MUST to either have in a rack unit or main device. If I can't get that it's a dealbreaker. I knew the Kemper had one so I wasn't concerned that it would be good enough but If I could get my questions answered from post #4, I'd be flying on it. I have to be able to wrap my head around the big picture of the functions to fully integrate with it. I really think there was some incorrect wording there and if not, I really am lost.

    I could but I would like to get the answer from someone that knows the Kemper in & out and has the answers. I have reasons I ask the specific questions I do, as I ask questions that the specific answers will allow me to fully understand the pitch shifter functionality. The manual should be where I "figure it out" but I detect the wording may be incorrect there. I sent this question to Kemper. They have been pretty good about answering tough questions.

    I asked Kemper support and they have no Idea why the manual was written the way it was or why it says what it does. They blamed it on "who wrote the manual".

    Wouldn't Kemper have control over that? I mean if you had a product wouldn't you likely have whoever wrote the manual know what they are talking about?

    It drives me nuts when you can tell the company didn't really dig into my questions and gives you replies that don't answer them specifically.

    Yes I know what user scales are, but that manual page is worded incorrectly and not even Kemper understands it. I take instructions very literally and there are apparently many errors on that page that cannot be answered by the company.

    Please stop assuming that we have no control over our documentation just because a chromatic scale was called a blues scale.

    Your question why the copywriter called the userscales blues scales has been forwarded to the copy writer. Let`s wait for his reply.

    Maybe the whole thing was just a misunderstanding.

    I'm just trying to find the answers in my post #4 and what harmonic interval they are intending with the two user scales and why they are included and non delete able. (Are they just templates etc?)That should be explained. Support told me the two are identical and obviously they are not. Same interval above and below the tonic maybe but not identical. No one has communicated that my questions have been forwarded or may be possibly answered except for that the the user scales cannot be deleted. I don't want to put a scale in if it is there forever & can't be deleted so that is another thing I am trying to find out before I do.

    Sorry if you think I am being critical, but manuals should be proofed, and written in a way that is understandable. I'm surprised no one has brought this up in all these years.

    Quote from Dynochrome

    I'm just trying to find the answers in my post #4 and what harmonic interval they are intending with the two user scales and why they are included and non delete able. (Are they just templates etc?)That should be explained. Support told me the two are identical and obviously they are not. Same interval above and below the tonic maybe but not identical. No one has communicated that my questions have been forwarded or may be possibly answered except for that the the user scales cannot be deleted. I don't want to put a scale in if it is there forever & can't be deleted so that is another thing I am trying to find out before I do.

    Sorry if you think I am being critical, but manuals should be proofed, and written in a way that is understandable. I'm surprised no one has brought this up in all these years.

    that sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding . A userscale does not present a single interval but is a table where you can define a different interval for every step of the chromatic scale by offsetting the pitch for each of the 12 steps in the chromatic scale by a positive or negative value. F.e. if you set step 0 to -5 you will get a 4th below the rootnote. A +4 for step 1 will produce a major third upward for that step and so forth. Since you can setup a different userscale for each of the two voices you can create complex 3 part harmonies even for the passing notes that do not belong to whatever scale you are actually playing in. In case you do not need that kind of complexity and you are looking for a simple third above or below the actual notes you are playing you can use the setting of - or +4 for one of the voices. As long as you stick to the key that you have chosen the Profiler will automatically switch between the major and minor third.

    Update: I think I found out what is causing the confusion. The manual describes the user scales as they appear in the Profiler Head and Rack model. If I look at the same user scales in the Stage both User scales use the same settings (aka major) while User Scale 1 in the head model is minor and User scale 2 is major. The term voice 1 and voice 2 in the picture at the bottom of page 190 is misleading. User scale 1 and 2 would be more appropriate.

    I sent a note to the copywriters.

    Quote from Kemper Support #1

    And if I compare the two default user scales they are indeed identical since the steps in each scale are using the exact same offsets.

    That why I wrote: "Same interval above and below the tonic maybe but not "identical." I understand the purpose of user scales and how they are supposed to work within a key. The manual was just throwing me off with that table labeled "voices" and speaking of the "two" blues scales one major and one minor.


    So can you tell me the intent of the user scale? I'm guessing when it was wrote:"The default User Scales are both blues scales - one major, and the other minor". they meant one above and one below the tonic and since it is a blues scale somewhat universal between major relative minor blues scale. I could probably tear it apart harmonically and figure it out but I wanted to hear the answer from the manufacturer so I could understand the thought process better. Was the intention it be used as a starter/example template to build from?


    Also what was the thinking behind the 10 entries not being deleteable? When I make a user scale will I be able to delete it? I want to know before I enter one and have it stuck there forever.


    In almost every new device I buy I find errors in the manual that I take time to relay to and try to help manufacturers. It just always surprises me no one else ever notices them especially in devices that have been out for quite a few years. I am pointing all this out in an effort to hopefully move forward into a revision that anyone could easily understand. The way the "Stereo parameter" is explained leaves some questions too and could be better IMO. Like a better explanation of what will occur if one has their outputs in mono as well as stereo. I believe I understand it, but it's written a bit strange. Once I understand it 100%, I will be able to help others as well. Normally, once I understand something I can explain it to someone in a way they get right away and I think "I wish it was explained to me that way so I didn't spend all that time on a goose chase for the truth."

    you cannot delete anything in the list of available options for each voice. You can however create 2 user scales for each rig in the Profiler in case none of the other available options fits the application you have in mind. This could for example be the case where a tune is in harmonic minor and you need the major 7th instead of the minor 7th.

    The 2 default scales are just placeholders or examples of what can be done with the user scales. Instead of setting each step to zero the programmer figured it would be more useful to offer a musical scale.

    Quote from Kemper Support #1

    you cannot delete anything in the list of available options for each voice. You can however create 2 user scales for each rig in the Profiler in case none of the other available options fits the application you have in mind. This could for example be the case where a tune is in harmonic minor and you need the major 7th instead of the minor 7th.

    The 2 default scales are just placeholders or examples of what can be done with the user scales. Instead of setting each step to zero the programmer figured it would be more useful to offer a musical scale.

    Ah,So I was correct that the user preset table is just a template as I speculated? (You could have just said that if so)


    If it IS so, I understand now and could explain it like this: " In the user scale section there is a template with a example scale loaded that you can overwrite to suit your needs that can be saved per rig." Now I must ask can you save a list of them to be recalled like the output, input, stomps etc. because Paulyts wrote: "AND, you can save them as Presets, to use with other Rigs." Is that correct? And can you access them from RM? I get that you cannot change the list of options, I never even considered that. I'm speaking of the user scale once you select user scales from the option screen.

    Can you save a list of them to be recalled like the output, input, stomps etc.?

    So can user scales be deleted?

    Can they be accessed in RM?

    I was busy sticking up for Kemper's good customer service when I realized I have not received the answers to this!

    Hi, Dynochrome.


    User Scales


    Can you save a list of them to be recalled like the output, input, stomps etc.?

    A User Scale is a parameter of a Harmonic Pitch Preset.

    You can create and delete Harmonic Pitch Presets,


    So can user scales be deleted?

    Yes. You can delete User Scales.

    When you are editing settings for the Harmonic Pitch, set Voice 1 Interval to User Scale 1.

    The first soft button lights up and gives you the option to Edit User Scale 1.

    Press the button soft button. You can edit the User Scale OR turn the Browse knob and a list of User Scales appears. There is a soft button option to delete a User Scale.

    ?The same applies to User Scale 2


    Can they be accessed in RM?

    Not directly - you can access a Harmonic Pitch Preset you created that includes a User Scale.

    Put another way, to access a User Scale while using Rig Manager you must load a Preset that has a User Scale.

    You can create, edit, delete User Scales on the Profiler, but I don't see a way to do that within Rig Manager.


    I haven't used the Harmonic Pitch effect, but I was intrigued by your questions. It took only a few minutes reading the manual AND trying things directly on the Profiler and Rig Manager to find the information above. It took much longer to write about it.


    We may have different learning styles, but I encourage you to try things hands-on with the Profiler while reading the manual. Most of the time that works well for me.


    ST

    I would have, and agree with you. But no one could tell me for sure if I could erase user scales. I didn't want to tattoo my unit with something I may not want. Before I jump out of a plane, I make sure I have a parachute. I am understanding now, that the non deletable "presets" are basically templates that you can alter, then save within the effect. The main question remained simply was, if I could erase user scales, as I could not find a way to erase the 10 that came with the device. I agree that I could have messed around on the device and discovered an answer but I normally prefer to learn from the manual. And if you have followed this thread you will see that the manual is lacking somewhat there. Thank you for your help. When you wrote "A User Scale is a parameter of a Harmonic Pitch Preset". It makes a lot of sense. I was thinking of a preset within a preset I guess.

    Hi, Dynochrome.


    Quote from Dynochrome

    ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄

    I didn't want to tattoo my unit with something I may not want. Before I jump out of a plane, I make sure I have a parachute.

    ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄


    It only takes a few seconds to do a backup before trying something new.

    True but for the sake of argument, A backup doesn't let you delete the default presets, and with no menu option to delete them, I had no reason to not to believe that user presets would become permanent as well. Permanent meaning they would still be there after a backup. I didn't understand how or where they were stored.

    I was told you could save user scales as presets, not in with presets and that's what threw me off initially. I normally take instructions to the letter as I understand them.

    It should have been easier just to ask, are user scales deletable and got a yes or no answer which I was not able to get. Now that I understand they are saved within the preset, it's all clear. Thank you.