Digital Rights Management

Quote from stormhenge

And please point me in the direction of the system that exists for those who've had their amps profiled without their permission, while you're at it.

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Also, no recourse for the little guys, like Suhr, Fortin, etc. People who put years of R&D, insight, cleverness, and love into creating something special, and someone taking and distributing a copy of that thing for free. Because, it's not currently illegal. Immoral, perhaps, but.not illegal.

I think you misunderstand the concept of profiling someone’s amp without their permission. There is no need to have permission to profile an amp any more than there is to make a recording of that amp or to ask permission to use the mic in the process of making the recording. Profiling is capturing the sound not copying the IP that created that sound. Not only is not illegal but it isn’t immoral either. However, distributing profiles themselves without ownership or permission from the owner is both illegal and immoral.

Ironically, Kemper making a DRM system could make them complicit in any cases against profile sellers by amp manufacturers, if they change copyright law to allow the sound produced by a circuit to be copyrighted, which is so absurd that it could possibly happen in the world of today.

It’s funny that you demand a DRM system be put in place on the background of an amp you built on the back of someone else’s circuit. You wouldn’t be in a position to demand this if it wasn’t for the free sharing of schematics on the Internet.

Quote from stormhenge

and all of us who have used free profiles are complicit in this. Even me. and even more so if we don't stand up for what is right.

Once again we need to be specific here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using free profiles if the creator of the profiles allows this. When uploading a rig to Rig Exchange you specifically grant the ability for others to use it. However, sharing commercial profiles is on breach of EULA and is clearly immoral and illegal.

I haven’t used commercial profiles that I haven’t paid for and won’t do so. In fact another forum member sent me a rig once with effects loaded to help me achieve a specific song tone. When I opened it I noticed that it wasn't a free profile. As the profile now resided on my KPA and I had used it I didn’t feel it was right to continue using it in the knowledge that I hadn’t paid for it. i could have deleted it butI still felt bad having used it. So, I went to the profiler’s webstie and bought the profile. I also notified the user who sent it to me about breaching the creator’s agreement. He was most apologetic as he hadn’t realised the implications of sharing his effect chain on a commercial profile. I am pretty sure that he will not have shared any commercial profiles since.

The problem with DRM is that it is a nuisance for people who wouldn’t break the rules anyway and the people who would break the rules will always manage to find a way to circumvent it. Just look at the number of cracked versions of things like Protools etc that are in circulation.

It's not about being defensive in favor of the current model.

It's more to be against a system (DRM) that does nothing against those who illegally use a product (profile, audio file, ebook, Photoshop, Protools, etc.), but creates inconvenience to the legal owner who have paid for the product.

Quote from stormhenge

Still curios why people are so defensive in favor of the current model. These types of systems that take advantage of creatives remain in place because we allow them to. Not because they need to. I don't understand why individuals consistently operate from a place of unworthiness. This idea that if we demand meaningful change to institutions such as streaming, or any free distribution models, our overlords will somehow effectively punish us. Demand something better. You're worth it. Your work is worth it.

You're talking about copyrighting the force a screwdriver has on a screw. An amp is a tool. In and of itself, it is useless. The sound it makes is useless, unless there's someone to utilise it. In the screwdriver analogy, sure, the design of the screwdriver might be copyrightable, but not the outcome of the screw being turned, at least not by the manufacturer (some mad genius handy man might invent some new way to fix a screw in a wall that he might copyright, but I digress). And as for Kemper being threatened by someone reverse engineering their stuff, including DRM and killing it by making deals with manufacturers, when in history has paid ever won over free? A recent example is TH-U. It can apparently convert Kemper profiles for use in the plugin. Unfortunately, only Overloud have the technology to convert them and they charge a fee for all profiles. Even though the plugin is a fraction of the Kemper price, I doubt that it has impacted on Kemper's sales one bit.

Likening DRM in the Kemper for something that isn't actually copyrightable to the shitty deals that streaming services give out to artists isn't appropriate, in my opinion. This is a completely different argument and potentially sends us down a dark path of litigation hell.

Quote from stormhenge

Patent expiration. Not to mention the Marshall circuit and damn near every amp you've ever played is basically a clone of the Fender circuit.

This gets bandied around a lot. It's true. No laws were infringed. As it happens, none are in the way Kemper operates, either. DRM is sure to open up that can of worms, however. I'd leave it be and give up the few hundred bucks I'd make from selling my amp profiles for a world where a few lawyers make a little less. Don't share your profiles and be happy

Quote from stormhenge

This forum is littered with literally hundreds of examples of Kemper inconveniences regarding firmware alone.

So a little more is cool, then?

sambrox as Robert Cray said - “give me an hour alone in a bank, tell me a boat full of lawyers just sank......” or the old joke “what do you call a ship full of lawyers at the bottom of the sea? A good start!” Jokes are funny because there is always some truth in them. Litigation typically benefits lawyers more than anyone else.

Quote from stormhenge

No one seems to be arguing for upgrades to stop, though. You're more than willing to accept the inconvenience because of everything amazing that you get out of the product. So it's not a reason it's an excuse.

i don’t see that as a valid comparison

it is possible to opt out of upgrades by simply not installing them however DRM would be embedded in the system and the rigs and therefore affect everyone using the KPA.

On the subject of someone cloning the kemper algorithms, I can't speak to it but it sounds like fantasy.

On the subject of the notion of piracy in the commercial rig space...

I don't think I've ever seen a user plea for a close ecosystem like this. I think it would be hell if profiles had DRM. In the words of Gabe Newell, "Piracy is a service issue".

If it's easier to pirate or there are regions where people can't afford the product, why not pirate it? The more hoops you have to jump through to get stuff working, the better the experience.

It's kind of a bummer that Kemper doesn't have a storefront for all the commercial profile creators so we can have one place to visit but I think the ecosystem is quite fun to be honest.

HW from ToneJunkie makes fun content, Michael Britt makes just quality stuff you know you can rely on.

I have a few of their packs and a few others and have spent about $200 on commercial profiles after engaging in the world of the Profiler for a few years and I basically use the Morgan AC20 from the Rig Exchange, two profiles form the JMProto pack from Tone Junkie, a JMP and Plexi profile from a pack I'm not sure where I got em.

Piracy isn't even remotely an issue facing this community.

I think we should all look at this from Kemper’s point of view. They have absolutely nothing to gain from putting a DRM system in place. All they’d be doing would be enabling third-parties to make money off the back of their tech, with all the R&D, upkeep and updates they’ve put into it and continue to do so. They already make money off it anyway, as little as that may be for the small profile vendors, but nothing is stopping them from continuing to do, with or without DRM.

What they certainly will lose though is customers. Even if we’re all cool with buying profiles and no one is pirating, it will still harm the customer base. I for one hate having to input codes to unlock software, and the thought of having to do that every time I buy a profile pack turns me right off.

Of course people who put time and effort into dialling amps, placing mics, adjusting EQs and whatever else should be paid for their work, if that is what they wish. That isn’t a debate for me. I think most people who have shelled out for a Kemper don’t have a problem with that.

Quote from stormhenge

No one seems to be arguing for upgrades to stop, though. You're more than willing to accept the inconvenience because of everything amazing that you get out of the product. So it's not a reason it's an excuse.

Inconveniences when updating are a necessary evil, the times when it goes less than smoothly (only happened to me once in my 7 years of Kemper ownership with a beta, but that’s another tale). I don’t think anyone in the community would think that inconveniences from a DRM system would be worth the few extra bucks that third-parties would make from the few spoiled kids that got a Kemper but don’t have pocket money for profiles.

User experience is key. Being able to load a profile made in 2011 and for it to sound the same now as it did then, whether it be on the rack or toaster that I had, or on the stage that I currently use, without having to mess about with licenses or permissions or worry about the OS version is what will win out, tones being (reasonably) equal. The Kemper is so simple for a reason. There’s a huge chunk of guitar players that aren’t tech savvy. Some even struggle with the Profiler! Granted, they’re probably a dying breed, but unless that DRM locked ecosystem isn’t plug and play, it’ll be a ship passing in the night.

People are beginning to realise that it doesn’t matter what amp or brand was profiled, as long as it sounds good, anyway.

Quote from sambrox

[…] which is so absurd that it could possibly happen in the world of today.

love this line ... sad that this weird sentence actually makes sense though