Profiling an amp: is it the whole or a snapshot?

  • When you profile an amp, is the profile that you make either a copy of the entire amp behavior, or a snapshot of the amp at that particular instance and particular setting?


    Let's say I profile an amp with volume, gain, and EQ all flat (5 =flat). When I go to load that profile in the Kemper, will that profile behave and sound the same as the original amp if I increase the gain to 8 from 5 on both of them. Or will I have to re-profile the amp with Gain at 8 for the Kemper to accurately produce the sound of the original amp at Gain = 8?


    Ex: Let's say the original amp's behavior with tone/gain settings from 0 to 10 are represented like this: [----------]


    Does the Kemper just copy (profile) this much behavior? [-]

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • not only of the amp but also of different cab/mike setting.

    that's why, IMHO It's very appreciate to see all the fileds fulfilled with detalied info.

    it helps to understand (remember) the settings used for that particoular profile.

    t


    and that's why sometimes you find pack of ..120 profiles.. of the same Amplifier on the same Cabinet

  • So, rolling back the guitar volume won't necessarily clean up the rig sound accurately. Hmmm.


    Yes. I now see why all that info is more critical now than before.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • So, rolling back the guitar volume won't necessarily clean up the rig sound accurately. Hmmm.


    Yes. I now see why all that info is more critical now than before.

    Changing the volume on the guitar is different from changing a value on the Profiler.

    ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄


    Let's say I profile an amp with volume, gain, and EQ all flat (5 =flat). When I go to load that profile in the Kemper, will that profile behave and sound the same as the original amp if I increase the gain to 8 from 5 on both of them. Or will I have to re-profile the amp with Gain at 8 for the Kemper to accurately produce the sound of the original amp at Gain = 8?


    ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄ - ✂ - ✄


    I find the Profiler is extremely responsive to the volume control on the guitar, even when comparing the Profiler to the original amp.


    Have you profiled any of your amps yet?

  • It’s a snapshot of the entire recording chain at the settings given. So if you then tweak the bass / treble settings on the profiler on the fly, it might not react exactly as per the original. Whilst that might be considered bad news, the good news is that you can go far beyond the original amp.


    if you look at a commercial profiler, many of them will do multiple profiles of a single amp.


    Guitar volume should work as per the original amp *at those settings* so you can absolutely profile at a hot setting and get things clean by rolling back guitar volume.

  • yes.. I mean that the Snapshot of a certain signal chain Includes those Dinamic characteristcs and captures a profile that behaves Dinamically like That.

    -------------

    From there You can start to adjust differents parmeters that go beyond the original sound.

    But to roll up or down i.e. Bass on KPA does not modify the sound as rolling it on the original amo that You ve profiled..

    To capture that setting You have to do a new profile.

  • This is something that I also haven't understood completely yet :/ I hope this isn't getting too basic and I should have found/read this somewhere in the manual(s). Otherwise just let me know.


    When I load a profile into the Profiler the meetings for bass, middle, treble and presence are all at "0.0". If the original amp's setting for treble has been at (for example) 3 o'clock during the profiling process, 3 o'clock at the original amp is represented by "0.0" in the Profiler?


    Assuming that I understood the point above correctly, how does the Profiler create the sound modification when I change its treble setting? Is that done by the algorithms of the Profiler software dynamically out of the profiled 3 o'clock original amp setting? How close can that be to the sound of the original amp's sound with the same change in the treble setting? (Obviously very close, I know. But that's an interesting topic).


    Best

    Jens

  • of course you always find something in the manual:

    read about tone stack at page 148.


    Quote

    EQ

    The EQ (equalizer, often called “tone stack”) is an integral part of the amplifier. It features four controls for the different frequency bands: “Bass”, “Middle”, “Treble” and “Presence”. These controls are always present in Browse and Performance Mode.

    Basically, the equalizer in the PROFILER is a recreation of a generic, passive tone stack, but it is designed to have more impact on the frequency bands. When all soft knobs are in the middle position, it does not change the sound, so what you hear is the unaltered sound of the PROFILE.

    An additional setting can be found on the last page of the amplifier module: A soft button allows you to set the position of the equalizer to either “Post” (after) or “Pre” (before) the amp module. The EQ has a different impact on the sound of a distorting amp, depending on its position. In tube amps, it is positioned between the preamp and the power amp. Most modern guitar amps with a master volume control perform the distortion in the preamp; thus, the equalizer is positioned after the distorting circuit. Classic amps without master volume control (such as Vox® AC-30), produce the distortion in their power amp. In this case, the equalizer is positioned before the distorting circuit. However, setting the position according to the original amp is not mandatory, since the authentic sound of the reference amp has already been captured, and therefore includes the original equalizer setting. Users of classical PROFILER models can use the EQ button as a shortcut to the EQ settings in the amplifier module.

    ✓ A dedicated tutorial video explaining the EQ in the stack section can be found at: http://www.kemper-amps.com/video

    So..if You dial with the tone stack of the KPA it is different from what you'd get in the original amp.

    How much diffrent?.. it depends.

    but no ..

    Quote

    How close can that be to the sound of the original amp's sound with the same change in the treble setting? Obviously very close,

    NOT Very Close.


    Immagine like, Your'e adding to the amp just profiled an EQ in front or in its loop fx.

    I had the MRX 10 Band EQ a long time ago.. it does not react as the amp's tone control right?

    more or less it's the same with the tone stack in KPA

  • Now I know. ;)


    When I start to profile my own amps, ( ST ), I will do three profiles for each amp. Clean, Crunch ,Dirty. So, we got my OP answered.


    Now I have to figure out how to go from clean to dirty using one rig without having to click the foot controller thru rigs during a take. I remember reading the Parallel Path setting for the stomps section can increase/decrease gain with maybe my exp pedal. Any other way to do that? Go from clean to crunch/dirty smoothly without clicking a distortion stomp on?

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • Now I know. ;)


    When I start to profile my own amps, ( ST ), I will do three profiles for each amp. Clean, Crunch ,Dirty. So, we got my OP answered.


    Now I have to figure out how to go from clean to dirty using one rig without having to click the foot controller thru rigs during a take. I remember reading the Parallel Path setting for the stomps section can increase/decrease gain with maybe my exp pedal. Any other way to do that? Go from clean to crunch/dirty smoothly without clicking a distortion stomp on?

    Why not just create a performance containing your Clean, Crunch and Dirty Profiles? Switching between profiles in a performance is the same 1 "click" as activating a stomp

  • Quote

    Now I have to figure out how to go from clean to dirty using one rig without having to click the foot controller thru rigs during a take.


    Go straight with the old school Singol Channel Way: USE Guitar Volume (and Tone) Knobs!

  • Now I have to figure out how to go from clean to dirty using one rig without having to click the foot controller thru rigs during a take. I remember reading the Parallel Path setting for the stomps section can increase/decrease gain with maybe my exp pedal. Any other way to do that? Go from clean to crunch/dirty smoothly without clicking a distortion stomp on?

    Although it may not be quite as accurate as using two profiles, you could use a profile created with more gain, then use morph to lower the gain to what you want for your clean sound. Still a click for the morph, but maybe less apparent than two profiles.


    Some people here have said, and I agree, that lowering the gain on a profile works much better than raising the gain on a cleaner profile. The main clean profile I use is an AC30 profile that started out with a much higher gain. I find no problem lowering it to zero gain for a completely clean Vox tone. And of course with the morph, you could also change any number of other thing, such as the mix on other effects.

  • Now I have to figure out how to go from clean to dirty using one rig without having to click the foot controller thru rigs during a take. I remember reading the Parallel Path setting for the stomps section can increase/decrease gain with maybe my exp pedal. Any other way to do that? Go from clean to crunch/dirty smoothly without clicking a distortion stomp on?

    as others have said, using the guitar volume or morph for gain work very well. The guitar volume option works exactly like it would on a real amp with those settings. However, if you want to be able to doit without reaching for the guitar’s volume knob during a take you can use a volume pedal placed before the Stack. You can even set thos with a minimum value greater than 0 so that heel position corresponds to your clean sound rather than silence.


    On a separate note, you seem to have a fixation with Parallel Path ? While it has some uses I don’t think it is the most appropriate solution for some of the situations you have described so far. Try just using the Direct Mix in the stack section (manual P147) to add that clean attack instead of creating a separate parallel path.

  • as others have said, using the guitar volume or morph for gain work very well. The guitar volume option works exactly like it would on a real amp with those settings. However, if you want to be able to doit without reaching for the guitar’s volume knob during a take you can use a volume pedal placed before the Stack. You can even set thos with a minimum value greater than 0 so that heel position corresponds to your clean sound rather than silence.


    On a separate note, you seem to have a fixation with Parallel Path ? While it has some uses I don’t think it is the most appropriate solution for some of the situations you have described so far. Try just using the Direct Mix in the stack section (manual P147) to add that clean attack instead of creating a separate parallel path.

    I'll try that. As for the Parallel Path - I saw the demo that shows how you go from clean to raising the gain with a pedal, so I wasn't sure of other options.



    How do you do that with your amp without switching channels? If you do it with your guitar volume knob, the Profiler will do it, too.

    I can do that with a Marshall DSL - go from clean to crunch just using the guitar volume but I was using automation in my DAW to regulate consistent volumes for both during the change. I wrote a song where I need to do this with a nice blend of the two, and trying to figure out how to do it in a live setting. I've asked many seasoned guitarists and they had no idea - at least using regular tube or SS amps and pedals. You would think someone would have invented a special pedal for this. My other choices to perform that song live was; hire another guitarist for the pass off. Pre-record clean on a looper, or just liv' with the "pause" during the song when switching from clean to dirty in a live show.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • go from clean to crunch just using the guitar volume but I was using automation in my DAW to regulate consistent volumes for both during the change

    Try using Morph:

    1) Start with a crunch rig. Note the Gain Amount and Rig Volume amount.

    2) Reduce the gain, and turn up the Rig Volume to offset the difference.

    3) Store The Rig.

    4) Engage Morph, by using an expression pedal or a second press of the Rig Switch.

    5) Set the Morph Gain and Rig Volume to the original crunch rig values.

    6) Confirm that the clean and crunch are the same value, and make any needed adjustments.

    7) Store the Rig again.


    When you access the Rig, it will be clean. Morphing the Rig will turn it into a crunch rig at the same volume.