Direct + mic room sounds?

  • I get some great sounds using my phone recording my Kemper powered toaster with a oversized CL80 cab. I get great sounds going direct too. I have even miked the cab with my dynamic mics and got great sounds. I really like some of the sounds I get recording with my phone from 5' away as it adds room and really sounds like amp in the room.Problem is it's not as workable and clear as going direct. Has anybody mixed direct sounds with cab room sounds or will that create issues because of latency? I figured it may for close miking, but if you were able to move the mic back at the same as the latency (say the latency is 4 ms, then you move the mic back 4') it may come out fine if that is even necessary at all. I may have crossed upon some old threads about this but has anyone tried this? To me the only thing missing is "room sound" I know I can simulate that in my DAW splitting tracks adding reverb etc but just throwing a mic up might be a easy and fun way to get amp in the room sounds on tape and being able to mix them.

  • Hi, Dynochrome.


    Quote

    From Burkhard

    @Monkey_Man has provided the scientific explanation above, why the normal latency of the PROFILER equals the additional latency you experience at about 1.2 m more physical distance between your ears and your monitor speaker. If you select Constant Latency it's about 1.6 m, just 40 cm or about one foot more. So, deactivating Constant Latency is like moving about 40 cm or one foot closer to your monitor speaker. That cannot explain a perceived latency difference like between night and day! Perhaps your latency issue got solved, because you moved 2 meters (6 feet) closer to your cab or are using in-ears now!? That impact would even be bigger than the whole PROFILER latency.


    Source: Kemper input feels like there is latency


    I understand that. I am asking specifically about mixing a room mic with Kemper direct sound and the possible phasing due to latency of the Kemper output signal.


    There are so many other sources of latency and phase issues in any signal chain, only you can answer your question as it applies to your situation with your gear in your room.


    Please tell us what you hear when you try it.



    Edit: Adding Monkey_Man 's data referenced above.


  • So if I understand this correctly, I can select "constant latency" which is about 5.25 ms so I should start around 1.6 m away with my room mic. (Which is coincidentally where I like to put it anyway!)

    I read the paragraph in the manual and understood that without Constant latency selected it is shorter but inconsistent. Selecting constant latency fixes it to a understandably longer time.


    I like to do my calculations first and then try things based on known variables. I design expensive parts for my day job and am not used to just "trying it" to see if something works. I gather as much data as I can then prototype. Now when I try this I'll have a starting point based on approx. consistent latency specs. Thanks

  • Not all problems require the same amount of rigour. In low-stakes/low-risk situations with little or no cost to experimentation, a practical approach may be more effective.

    Most likely you are correct. But I have fun experimenting like that. A low risk situation is exactly where I would want to do calculations before hands on.. That way when it comes to doing something in a high risk situation, I had practice and less likely to mess up. Lets me adjust with a starting point so I know if a little less is better than a little more etc, so in the future I can make better calls when I may not be able to do hands on. Or have the time to.

  • Has anybody mixed direct sounds with cab room sounds or will that create issues because of latency?

    I routinely blend a Kemper-fed miked cab, a direct Kemper signal, and a cabless-profile I run into IRs (I know— I have a sickness) when I record. Sound Radix Auto-Align works great for me.


    I’m not sure how it would perform on a room mic and a Kemper direct signal. If you send me some short clips, I could test and post results.


    You can also get a trial here: https://www.soundradix.com/products/auto-align/

  • Auto Align is great, and InPhase by Waves does a similar thing. But try it first before correcting anything - I often find that the tiny extra bit of time it takes for the sound to get the room mics is not a problem. In fact, it's part of what makes room mics sound like room mics :-D

  • I have to report that after all my worrying, calculating & measuring, the ones that were implying "just try it" were correct.

    I had my Kemper going mono out to my recording console and put a condenser room mic about 5 feet away and a great sound was immediate. I'd consider it major label album sound.

    To be fair, it sounded best when the Kemper was doing the brunt of the work, but the room mic added the "magic" amp in a room I was missing recording. I was surprised that playing the room mic solo sounded distant, phasey and not that great in comparison to the Kemper track, ( Normally if I would record just that mic that way it would sound pretty good to me) but surprisingly huge with the Kemper direct and better than either track on it's own.

    Live in a big room adding that mic would probably be a deficit but in the studio it's awesome, and I am floored by how instantly it worked and sounded great with zero adjusting and absolutely no phase issues at all. (You can tell because it actually helped the low end!) Mics, levels, hit record, mix= perfect! Easy!!! Thank you Kemper for making this tool! The last of my live use tube amps are getting sold this week. (Not vintage stuff) I just can't see any reason to keep them and I was a HUGE tube snob with a crate of vintage tubes. Using my ears and fingers (as well as the portability) has me saying bye bye to a lot of my gear.

  • Thanks for the follow-up, Dynochrome . I’d love to hear A/B clips with and without room if you care to share.

    I never A/B'd a recording. I did when mixing and then chose slider positions and mixed down. Normally I do the same as Michael Wagner

    where at the end I commit all mics to a mono track. Sometimes a stereo track. I could probably set up the mic again and record something for you but I don't subscribe to any way that I could share it. I didn't do anything "secret". I simply recorded direct mono out Kemper and used a Spark mic on my CL80 oversized openback cab about 5' away. I messed with panning and did some OK stuff but in the end I think I liked both tracks straight up with the room mic about 45% of what the direct was. I was just impressed that it didn't create any phase issues. I thought for sure it would, but the live mic at 5' away the latency should be about what the Kemper's is. I have a harder time getting 2 mics to sound good than I did the Kemper + mic! I was very pleased to see that it created no issues. Reviewing the track, I think the room mic is optional and I'd bet I could get close using a time based effect on a cloned direct Kemper track. For now, I tore the room mic down and will go back to direct only. I just wanted to see hat would happen and was very surprised that the tracks worked together so well without trying.