Is the physical Kemper necessary?

  • I hope that one day in the future we will find out exactly how the Kemper profiles. There are often plausible guesses, but I don't sense they are that close.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • I hope that one day in the future we will find out exactly how the Kemper profiles. There are often plausible guesses, but I don't sense they are that close.

    They use special devices called "recording equipment". ;)

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • Yes....but 0’s and 1’s is within my humble tech knowledge just data that can be hosted by a digital host. What I still haven’t been able to understand is the difference of these 0’s and 1’s compared to other 0’s and 1’s from another host where these 0’s and 1’s have been obtained in exactly the same way. What does the physical unit of the Kemper add to the equation? No one has been able to answer that yet.


    Because I highly doubt that Kemper will be able to have this tech for themselves. Yes....the physical unit due to patented rights of course. But do people really believe, that others haven’t looked at the results of the Kemper years ago and said.....”okay....we need to do our “modeling” this way”? And yes....they cannot offer the profiling in their product, but they can deliver amp sounds based upon the Kemper way. IR’s as well.


    Someone wrote that the Kemper as a plug-in should have the physical unit connected through usb. But....that’s kinda what’s going on now with the RM. it’s not a plug-in....I know. But recording through s/pdif and having the RM open is pretty much like a plug-in besides the fact that you don’t record the dry signal and just listen to the plug-in during playback and recording. Now you have to record the dry and the wet signal, which I do actually.

  • I don't think anyone argues that the Kemper couldn't just as well be a plugin soundwise. It could. But it's so much more than just the sound.

    Kemper PowerRack |Kemper Stage| Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune | 1988 Desert Yellow JEM

  • I hope that one day in the future we will find out exactly how the Kemper profiles. There are often plausible guesses, but I don't sense they are that close.

    In the paper "Block-oriented modeling of distortion audio effects using iterative minimization" the authors reference the kemper patent summarizing it as:



    To the best of my knowledge that would mean that the core model is two linear blocks with a nonlinear block in between.

    The nonlinear block is typically approximated as the sum of a series of polynomials (or curves in general). There's quite a lot of ways to represent the linear blocks, so I won't speculate on those.


    If you're interested the method is part of a field of mathematics called nonlinear system identification. What Neural DSP is doing with the Quad Cortex capture is another instance of this line of research.

    There are obviously a bunch of innovations on top of that model, which, I believe, is what sets the Kemper apart from the Quad Cortex.

  • I just saw some videos on YouTube regarding the Neural Quad Cortex. Damn....I can’t see the difference in how the Kemper and this machine achieve their profiles. It might be in the details the difference is to be found. So reality overtook my imagination trip prior to the start of this trip.


    That must be a wake up call for the Kemper team. What next? How to keep their market percentage, when the future is here already. Axe FX III, Quad Cortex and very good plugins. New units like the Quad Cortex is bound to pop up eventually. If that isn’t a reason to rethink business strategy and consider a Kemper 2 within a few years, when they have pushed some of their latest stuff, I don’t know what is.

    The future is exiting.

  • I just saw some videos on YouTube regarding the Neural Quad Cortex. Damn....I can’t see the difference in how the Kemper and this machine achieve their profiles. It might be in the details the difference is to be found. So reality overtook my imagination trip prior to the start of this trip.


    That must be a wake up call for the Kemper team. What next? How to keep their market percentage, when the future is here already. Axe FX III, Quad Cortex and very good plugins. New units like the Quad Cortex is bound to pop up eventually. If that isn’t a reason to rethink business strategy and consider a Kemper 2 within a few years, when they have pushed some of their latest stuff, I don’t know what is.

    The future is exiting.

    Watched a video on the Quad Cortex. Looks like a cool unit. Not cheap and very 1.0, but it's going to be another nice option for people.


    That said, given the topic of this thread I can't help but notice that it's a physical product.

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

  • True. It’s a bit off topic looking at the title. But I’m trying to figure out what is up and what is down with Kemper and the future of it. That involves pressure from competitors as well. I do believe that a plug-in cannot handle the profiling part. That’s not the point. The point is after the profiling. How can these types of data be handled? Many users don’t do profiling themselves. Me for instance. To me the profiling part is not important. It is of course.....because without it I cannot have any profiles to select from. But I, myself, don’t use it. Actually only tried it once.


    I was wondering if we needed the physical unit to run the profiles. Because if we don’t, then we are staring into a future, where Kemper will lose market shares, because the secret is out. And here is where the Quad Cortex came in. It was actually to point out that the Kemper way of obtaining a sound, is “stolen” already. And if it’s out there used by Quad Cortex who’s is to say, that others don’t use it as well only to obtain the sounds and put them in a plug-in. And hence the physical unit is somewhat obsolete. If it’s the exact same end result in all the other competitors solutions. You cannot profile yourself with the plug-in of course. But a lot don’t do that, so.....


    I would think that they have to rethink their business plan. And I guess that they might have done that already. They have a pretty good idea of what is going on a the market today. But imho they cannot rest now as the competitors are gaining market shares. The Kemper is not THE thing people talk about anymore. It’s becoming a thing of the past. So what has got to happen?

    I still love my unit though and if they released a Kemper 2, I might go for it. But it has to contain severe upgrade in tech for it to be eligible for existence and future proof. So what it comes down to is actually that I’m a little concerned on behalf of Kemper. I probably don’t have to be. That are aware of what’s going on and they push a lot of units out. More than Axe FX III, that has several months of waiting to get one. Two different business models, which I have no position to question. I’m just worried I guess. Worried that the machine and company that I like will end up being the slow kid on the block.

  • Do you need the physical unit to run profiles? At the moment yes. Will Kemper produce a plug in? No idea.


    Understand why you are worried but think of it this way:


    1) All tech eventually becomes obsolete. You can't escape this. So far Kemper have made the most future proof device I've ever seen....nearly 10 years in and still right up there with the best.


    2) Enjoy what you have. For me the KPA does what I want and I have no desire for something else. Compnies are constantly trying to find ideas for things you didn;t know you needed, like dual amps. Personally I have zero interest in Dual amps or complex stereo paths but some people do. Christophe has proven many times his foresight and can;t believe he will rest on his laurels ( and in fact hasn;t). Kemper is still the only device with a dedicated cab and built in power amp for example. The software upgrades keep coming. I have no doubt there will be a KPA 2 but I'm not going to worry about it until it happens.


    3) What is better anyway? The profiler is designed to snapshot great amps. assuming that is accurate how can you make it better than the reference amp? You can make it more "real" but after that it goes outside the parameters of the real amp. Now that might be desirable but its different.


    4) Because the profiler is based on amps, that capability is needed even if you don't need it, to create the ecosystem we have. The original point was to be able to copy you favourite sound in a more convenient package. A plugin would be great for studio only users but I suspect its as much about the ecosystem as it is about the software itself.

  • I know that the Kemper needs it. That’s not the point. It’s about the tech. Does the data (the 1’s and 0’s produced the Kemper way) need a physical unit to drive them. I doubt that. It’s just data. And it’s not about Kemper making a plug-in. It’s about the tech side of things.


    I’m absolutely agreeing with you. The Kemper has stayed on top of the game for ten years and the way they have turned this machine into a totally new machine from when I bought it almost ten years ago, is crazy and cool. Big value for money for me personally. But they are gaining competition now. They can’t keep pushing old tech out when new and more advanced solutions keep appearing. But indeed I am enjoying my Kemper. I still love it.


    What is better you ask? I have no conclusion on that topic. But I do know that Axe FX, Quad Core etc. plus many plugins are sounding better than ever. I think that many doesn’t really care how the sound is obtained. If it sounds realistic it doesn’t matter if it’s called modeling or profiling. It’s just one more competitor and more to chose from as a consumer. And for us it’s great.

  • I know that the Kemper needs it. That’s not the point. It’s about the tech. Does the data (the 1’s and 0’s produced the Kemper way) need a physical unit to drive them. I doubt that. It’s just data. And it’s not about Kemper making a plug-in. It’s about the tech side of things.


    I’m absolutely agreeing with you. The Kemper has stayed on top of the game for ten years and the way they have turned this machine into a totally new machine from when I bought it almost ten years ago, is crazy and cool. Big value for money for me personally. But they are gaining competition now. They can’t keep pushing old tech out when new and more advanced solutions keep appearing. But indeed I am enjoying my Kemper. I still love it.


    What is better you ask? I have no conclusion on that topic. But I do know that Axe FX, Quad Core etc. plus many plugins are sounding better than ever. I think that many doesn’t really care how the sound is obtained. If it sounds realistic it doesn’t matter if it’s called modeling or profiling. It’s just one more competitor and more to chose from as a consumer. And for us it’s great.

    Yeah I hear you.....


    Boil any code down and its 1's and 0's . Its not the data of course its the software so your question I think you are asking is can the software run without the hardware, presumably on a PC/MAC.

    The answer to me is pretty clear, at the moment no. Is it possible? of course it is. your questions is really what it would take to enable that, are Kemper interested in doing that etc. Only Kemper can answer that so maybe someone will chime in.


    I think are also stating, people don;t buy tech ( in most cases) they buy what it does for them. Some people will always be seduced by touch screens but ultimately its the sound quality that will prevail along with price. So you are right, there is more competition gaining but I also assume Kemper never thought their solution will remain unchallenged. I trust they will continue to innovate, time will tell if they stay ahead enough.


    To me Kemper are like Tesla. Innovators, doing things slightly differently. 10 years in they are still the only amp based on profiling and not modelling. Modellers are now added some tone matching and captures.... The competition will catch up and maybe overtake for a period but then they will take another leap forward....the latest Tesla Model S will have a longer range and be even faster now the competition is catching up and I think are staying one step ahead.


    The only reason I ask about is what is better is a conceptual question in terms of what people want from an amp. Is it the best replica of an amp or the best sound? Ultimately best sound of course but most people use the reference point of an amp and much of the debate bounces from if its the most accurate and whether is sounds any good interchangeably. You are right in that most people don;t care how you get there although some people will also get excited to have a near exact replica of a '68 plexi.....until they realise that it never sounded as good as the hype :).


    My only point here is for us to clarify what gauge we are applying at any time. I've found many of my "fav" amps don't sound as good as I remember ( I mean the real thing, never mind the profile).


    Im with you....just not sure you'll get the real answers. we just need to help influence Kemper on what we want/what is important to us.

  • Isn’t the Quad Cortex exactly sound the same thing as the Kemper? It’s the same principle. Throwing sounds through the setup and capture the signal flow.


    For me it’s not a question to Kemper as such. It’s more in regards to other companies cashing in on the Kemper tech and giving it to people in other solutions like plugins. And cheaper and easier to apply and take off. If the sound quality is the exact same, then it is indeed a matter of people still will look to the Kemper for the sounds, if they can get the exact same thing cheaper and perhaps better. Then it doesn’t matter if they were the inventors. Thousands of examples are out there of companies that are eventually run over by its completions.

    Edited once, last by b_ryan ().

  • Isn’t the Quad Cortex exactly sound the same thing as the Kemper? It’s the same principle. Throwing sounds through the setup and capture the signal flow.


    For me it’s not a question to Kemper as such. It’s more in regards to other companies cashing in on the Kemper tech and giving it to people in other solutions like plugins. And cheaper and easier to apply and take off. If the sound quality is the exact same, then it is indeed a matter of people still will look to the Kemper for the sounds, if they can get the exact same thing cheaper and perhaps better. Then it dives B.T. matter if they were the inventors. Thousands of examples are out there of companies that are eventually run over by its completions.

    1) Its not exactly the same process....the Quad is still a modeller but has the capture process added. Similar tech but not the same


    2) Does it matter if its the same? No if the result is the same. This is the current debate and not enough users to really know this so its too early to reach those conclusions


    3) This assumes Kemper stay static. They haven;t up to now and confident they will introduce another step change.


    The Quad is no doubt a good unit, its how good is it that only time will tell. I don;t expect Kemper to wait for that answer though...


    note its not cheap though....£1400 is a touch more expensive than the Stage.

  • I know that the Kemper needs it. That’s not the point. It’s about the tech. Does the data (the 1’s and 0’s produced the Kemper way) need a physical unit to drive them. I doubt that. It’s just data. And it’s not about Kemper making a plug-in. It’s about the tech side of things.

    This is something you may have to look in to yourself, but I believe the answer is no. I believe the Kemper software is written specifically for the processor in the Kemper, my understanding is it would be impossible for Kemper to upgrade the processor without going back to square 1 with the software.

    So if your asking if it's possible for some clever software engineer to actually play Kemper profiles through a pc then I believe the answer is no. I may be wrong

  • 2) Enjoy what you have.

    For a great many musicians, GAS is as much a hobby as playing music itself, so I totally get it. Always looking for the next new shiny object is fun.


    Oddly, since the above has been true for me as well, one of the things I love the most about the Kemper is that it eliminated a lot of GAS induced symptoms. Like many of you, I had a roomful of Marshalls and Fenders and Voxes (oh, my!). After a week or so with the Kemper to determine that it really was that good, I sold them all and whistled a little tune as they were carried out the door. Ironically, while I now have less stuff, I have more good tones. And I couldn't be happier about both. I no longer feel an empty space that needs filling.


    Will there be new products that rival the Kemper in functionality and quality? Of course there will. Tech marches on, businesses compete, consumers look for the next new shiny object.


    But what does this have to do with the Kemper already sitting in my studio? Absolutely nothing. Assuming it keeps working (and there's years of reliability history to suggest that it will), then I'll have the same roomful of tones no matter what new products hit the market. And that's assuming no more OS upgrades, an unlikely future at best.


    If I woke up one day and the Kemper suddenly sounded like crap, then what's new on the market would matter to me. In a similar fashion, if it suddenly didn't have the features I care about, I would also go searching. But a great profile of a cranked Marshall still sounds like a great cranked Marshall, and these OS upgrades keep giving me more, not less, in terms of tone options. For free.


    If someone came out with a new gizmo that was able to give me something I care about that the Kemper doesn't have, then perhaps I'd fire up the GAS-mobile again. But I plug in, get the tones I want, and have every feature (and more) that I could imagine. I couldn't possibly care less what new products hit the market.


    If I didn't already own a Kemper, it would be a different story, and I would evaluate competitors accordingly. But I have a Kemper, I have the remote, and I have a ton of excellent profiles that give me exact what I want.


    Is it wrong to just be happy with what I already have?

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

  • For a great many musicians, GAS is as much a hobby as playing music itself, so I totally get it. Always looking for the next new shiny object is fun.


    Is it wrong to just be happy with what I already have?

    Very true and nothing wrong with either of those points. In fact I definitely miss hunting around and researching new gear but conversely its also a release not having to find what I need.


    I have never had so many external positive comments....a friend of mine picked up some FRFR cabs from me yesterday and he commented on how good my Kemper sounded...he had seen me play at a gig many months previous ( pre lockdown!!) and said it sounded brilliant.


    Why would I want to change that :)

  • Very true and nothing wrong with either of those points. In fact I definitely miss hunting around and researching new gear but conversely its also a release not having to find what I need.


    I have never had so many external positive comments....a friend of mine picked up some FRFR cabs from me yesterday and he commented on how good my Kemper sounded...he had seen me play at a gig many months previous ( pre lockdown!!) and said it sounded brilliant.


    Why would I want to change that :)

    What profiles were you using and are the any clips online to hear from the shows? It is so difficult to know exactly how the sound will translate at volume in a venue.

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • To me Kemper are like Tesla. Innovators, doing things slightly differently. 10 years in they are still the only amp based on profiling and not modelling. Modellers are now added some tone matching and captures.... The competition will catch up and maybe overtake for a period but then they will take another leap forward....the latest Tesla Model S will have a longer range and be even faster now the competition is catching up and I think are staying one step ahead.

    That analogy is a little too close to the bone for me.


    I bought a Model S because I wanted to go electric but wanted the performance and range that nobody else could touch at the time. I also wanted the big touchscreen with my Spotify, Youtube and Netflix available on demand (even though I only use Spotify and even this is questionable sometimes). I.e. there are lots of features that I don’t use so they are benefits.


    The driving experience is wonderful on the few occasions you need to overtake an arctic on a country road but when you have to live with it day to day;


    The build quality is somewhat tacky.


    I would give anything for a cup holder that I didn’t need to be a contortionist to use and that sexy big touchscreen is a right royal pain in the ass to operate while driving.


    Turning on fog lights used to be a simple push button. Now I need to try and open the menu (hitting a virtual button on a smooth screen while driving is WAY more difficult than using a physical button). Then locate the right virtual buttons for the fog lights and try to actually hit them with a finger while still watching the road. Once I final get them on the automatic lights function turns them back off anyway ?????


    Same thing with temperature control. In all my previous cars it was a physical knob which was easy to locate and operate even without looking (i.e. you can keep your eyes on the road and not crash). Touchscreen is a disaster.


    But don’t worry because everything is now voice controlled. Except that it keeps saying to me “sorry could you repeat that as I didn’t understand l ??????


    I know that is a long anti Tesla rant but there is a relevant point in there too.


    Substitute driving without crashing and keeping your eyes on the road with playing a gig without stopping to find the settings to tweak etc........


    Touch screens and new tech are incredibly seductive but there is a reason why some old school methods (like buttons and knobs) lasted so long and are still around. They just work!


    In the real world I would take a Ford Mondeo over my Tesla for actual practicallity and usefulness. But I still keep my Tesla and just complain about it ?


    I see the QC and Kemper in much the same light.

  • Noooooo....just saving up for a Model S....