Is the physical Kemper necessary?

  • So if your asking if it's possible for some clever software engineer to actually play Kemper profiles through a pc then I believe the answer is no. I may be wrong

    Actually I’m not asking that. I seem to have difficulties explaining so people understand. What I mean is not another company somehow manage to create a plug-in for Kemper sounds. Someone already said that a plug-in actually did that, but that he couldn’t vouch for the quality.


    What I mean is other companies doing it the same way as Kemper. Obtain the sounds the exact same way as the Kemper and just putting it in a plug-in instead. If the TH-U or whatever it was, can import Kemper tones, then it kinda answers my question. Is it possible to run the data (profile sounds) without the Kemper. I then mean the tech. Not Kempers sounds.

  • What profiles were you using and are the any clips online to hear from the shows? It is so difficult to know exactly how the sound will translate at volume in a venue.

    TBH it was probably over a year ago. Happy to share what profiles I use if it helps but....Im not actually saying I think I've got a great sound, but others telling me means more to me than anything.


    I've no video from that show, I have a few audio and videos from other shows but I honestly would not put them up against any sounds or tones I hear from others on here. As you also hint at, it won't really sound like it did at the show itself anyway.


    Anyway, happy to share but not sure it will really help you except go " I think I sound better than that" :)

  • TBH it was probably over a year ago. Happy to share what profiles I use if it helps but....Im not actually saying I think I've got a great sound, but others telling me means more to me than anything.


    I've no video from that show, I have a few audio and videos from other shows but I honestly would not put them up against any sounds or tones I hear from others on here. As you also hint at, it won't really sound like it did at the show itself anyway.


    Anyway, happy to share but not sure it will really help you except go " I think I sound better than that" :)

    I know what you mean. Sometimes I feel the live tone is nailed and the next time I hear it there is doubt:-)

    Karl


    Kemper Rack OS 9.0.5 - Mac OS X 12.6.7

  • Same thing with temperature control. In all my previous cars it was a physical knob which was easy to locate and operate even without looking (i.e. you can keep your eyes on the road and not crash). Touchscreen is a disaster.

    I've been driving Corvettes for a few generations. My first one was a C5 (Corvette generation 5), a 90-something model. No computer screens, just knobs and levers. The C6 series came out and had been updated to a touch screen. The first thing that happens when the car starts is a big "Don't Sue Us" warning saying you shouldn't be screwing around with the touch screen while driving. The heating and air conditioning had no knobs. Just the touch screen. My comment to the salesperson as I was taking the test drive is unprintable.


    Needless to say, I didn't buy the C6 and just drove the socks off the C5. Eventually, after the C7 had been out a couple of years, I gave it a look. Touch screen as expected, but the lights, heating, air conditioning, seat heaters / fans, etc. all had physical knobs and buttons that you could operate by feel. It supports Car Play, so I plug my iPhone in and that's my stereo, but I use voice commands only (when Siri can understand my southern accent). It also has text messages and other such things on the touch screen. I ignore them all.


    When I'm driving, if I can't do it by feel, it doesn't get done. Like you, I see an analogy to guitars and computers. If I can stomp on a button or press a pedal, groovy. But the last thing I want to do on a gig is screw with a computer screen. I'm okay with Rig Manager (and think the new editor is pretty cool) when I'm in the studio because I'm in "computer mode" anyway. But I love the fact that I can operate the Kemper by the front panel or remote without the Microsoft logo anywhere in sight.


    By the way, you should ditch the Tesla and buy a Vette. It ain't electric, but it's way more fun. :)

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

  • By the way, you should ditch the Tesla and buy a Vette. It ain't electric, but it's way more fun. :)

    I've always loved US muscle cars, but in the UK they are impractical ( fuel costs, left hand drive etc) :). Only looking at electric because they are bonkers fast! I will miss the sound, but anything that can kick a Hellcat's butt is good in my eyes :)


    I'm not anti Kemper having touch screen etc. but I totally agree its not the differentiating factor and I like the familiarity of the amp controls too!

  • I've always loved US muscle cars, but in the UK they are impractical ( fuel costs, left hand drive etc) :).

    If you'd known me back in the sex, drugs & rock and roll days of my youth you'd realize that driving on the wrong side of the road isn't necessarily a disqualifying factor since it was likely to happen either way. :)

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

  • Does the Kemper really NEED the Kemper in physical form for handling the sound? I mean....a computer almost has unlimited amounts of processing power compared to the Kemper. How vital is the circuitry in the Kemper to the sound?

    100% Kemper would be able make a plugin which ran on a PC/Mac, loaded Kemper profiles and reproduced the audio exactly, or even at higher precision. I'll stay away from the profiling part of the equation, but in terms of using existing profiles, I have no doubt as to the feasibility of such a piece of software. In fact I look at TH-U itself as an existence proof. No additional hardware would be required apart from an off-the-shelf audio interface to plug into.


    As for the software being written specifically for the processor(s) inside of the Kemper, the bulk of the code itself is probably written in a higher level language (C or C++?) so it would take a bit porting work, and maybe some emulation work for any custom DSP chips. It would be akin to porting a computer game from one console to another which happens all the time. As you said, it's all ones and zeros after the guitar signal has been digitized. This wouldn't be the case if any analog processing were happening internal to the Kemper, e.g. if it contained tubes.


    As others have pointed out, there are many reasons why this may not be desirable for Kemper or the user base, but to answer your original question, yes, it would be possible.

  • As others have pointed out, there are many reasons why this may not be desirable for Kemper or the user base, but to answer your original question, yes, it would be possible.

    Just to echo this, my point was its a mute question because it is of course possible.

    Without knowing the code structure blah blah, we can only speculate on how much effort it would take to port onto a different platform and what emulators are needed etc.


    I suspect no one from Kemper will be drawn onto this so you can only add it as a feature request.

  • been through pretty much every amp plugin on the market over the years, where all of them fall flat for me is


    1. latency

    2. the need to use a mouse and keyboard, and a computer


    the one thing i enjoy with the K is to be able to just switch it on and concentrate on the playing and have a familiar and easy to use physical knob interface to quickly and intuitively make the basic adjustments i need while playing.


    it's the same with keyboards btw, over the years i completely stopped using all the amazingly realistic grand piano plugins i have, and find myself really enjoying my physical piano because i can just sit down and go from idea to actual music in an instant. most times with any plugin i already forgot the initial idea by the time the computer, DAW and plugin is fired up and set up and having to turn away from my instrument and pick up the mouse to do adjustments and look at the screen is a pain and completely counterproductive and unintuitive for me.


    the latency thing is still a huge thing, even with a stable 10ms roundtrip latency it just doesn't feel immediate enough for me and is equally distracting on guitar and keyboard.


    keyboard players have always been embracing digital emulations heavily in the studio and at home for composing and producing .. but you still don't see many using laptops and master keyboards on stage and the stage piano and synthesizer market is still very much alive for the same reason i feel many will always prefer to have an actual Kemper on stage.




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    free you mind and your ass will follow …

    Edited 2 times, last by stickman ().

  • ATT: stickman

    It’s weird. I never experienced latency when playing guitar through an audio interface. Neither my new pc with i7 processor or my very old pc with i3 processor have had any noticeable latency. I never really understood the problem people talk about. I know it’s there of course. But I never felt it any different from playing an amp.


    But other than that I get it. I also just pick up my electric guitar to play without sound and record with my phone to capture a quick idea. But the cool sounding vst piano sounds are great to have for recording though.


    ATT: V8guitar and rgba32


    I’m not talking abort porting the existing Kemper files so they fit random plugins and do not think it’s a good idea for them to make a plug-in. I’ve tried to really explain it thoroughly, but apparently fail miserably :D

    What I talked about was just the technology behind “their digital captured sounds” and if it somehow demanded a physical unit to handle the data. I suspected it not to be the case, but since I’m not a geek, I have no clue. This in regards to other companies to just do the same profiling/capturing of sound and put it out to the masses with the exact same good result. I think it has been answered. The data is just data as every other data is. 1’s and 0’s. I was just curious if the “real tube like sound” demanded extra that a regular plug-in couldn’t handle.

  • Well, I think you need something other than a standalone plug. Maybe something like my Apollo Solo, but from Kemper. It could have some processing like running a UAD plugin to help offload the CPU. Then you get a recording interface with the Kemper profiles as a possible plugs to run. Just not at UAD prices! Ha!

    But...it seemed like the POD form factor died out. Why manufacture a box that could only be used at home when the lunch box fits fine on most studio desks. The floor units aren't as elegant to use that way but the Kemper lunch box, or the Axe FX FM3, or the Helix Stomp all could be desktop studio boxes and still find their way to a pedal board or live application.

  • I see what you're getting at, even though to me, it sounded like you were phrasing it as a why can't the digital hardware solution be done in software.

    The vast majority of amp modelling developers are doing approximate circuit simulation. Which is a rather well researched topic, in this industry.


    Nonlinear system identification hasn't been explored much in the context of guitar amp modelling. There used to be a software which did some (limited) form of volterra modelling for analog audio efffects, but I've forgotten it's name. It never gained much traction.

    Prior to the Kemper release I don't think there was any research directly applicable to guitar amplifiers.


    Rather than framing it as a hardware or software problem. I do believe that it is more accurate to frame it as a wetware problem ;)

  • ATT: stickman

    It’s weird. I never experienced latency when playing guitar through an audio interface. Neither my new pc with i7 processor or my very old pc with i3 processor have had any noticeable latency. I never really understood the problem people talk about. I know it’s there of course. But I never felt it any different from playing an amp.

    i think it's one of those things that you can get used to but also it's one of those things that some people can live with and others can't. I've always been extremely sensitive to it and where i didn't mind it at some point (as long as it's below 10ms roundtrip) it has come back with a vengeance on keyboards now that i've been playing my analog piano so much. I recently went through all my guitar plugins again which i hadn't touched since i got the Kemper .. and even when cranking the latency as low as it would go it still didn't feel as immediat as my analog amp or the Kemper. But i know what you mean, i've had many people say to me "what the hell you mean .. it's fine" ^^




    -------------------------------------------------------

    free you mind and your ass will follow …

  • Well, I think you need something other than a standalone plug. Maybe something like my Apollo Solo, but from Kemper. It could have some processing like running a UAD plugin to help offload the CPU. Then you get a recording interface with the Kemper profiles as a possible plugs to run. Just not at UAD prices! Ha!

    Yet again I try to explain....I suspect that people don’t wanna read the whole thing. I get that. But it seems like either people don’t read the whole topic or I am very very bad at trying to explain in detail, what I mean. I do believe that I have tried :D

    I do NOT mean the Kemper itself. I mean the technology behind profiling. Another company applying this way of achieving its sounds and then putting it out there to the masses for them to go crazy. Do they need this particular circuitry to run a profile achieved the Kemper way. Is that physical unit absolutely fundamental for running THIS data? I hardly believe it.

  • i think it's one of those things that you can get used to but also it's one of those things that some people can live with and others can't. I've always been extremely sensitive to it and where i didn't mind it at some point (as long as it's below 10ms roundtrip) it has come back with a vengeance on keyboards now that i've been playing my analog piano so much. I recently went through all my guitar plugins again which i hadn't touched since i got the Kemper .. and even when cranking the latency as low as it would go it still didn't feel as immediat as my analog amp or the Kemper. But i know what you mean, i've had many people say to me "what the hell you mean .. it's fine" ^^

    You’re crazy ;)

  • Yet again I try to explain....I suspect that people don’t wanna read the whole thing. I get that. But it seems like either people don’t read the whole topic or I am very very bad at trying to explain in detail, what I mean. I do believe that I have tried :D

    I do NOT mean the Kemper itself. I mean the technology behind profiling. Another company applying this way of achieving its sounds and then putting it out there to the masses for them to go crazy. Do they need this particular circuitry to run a profile achieved the Kemper way. Is that physical unit absolutely fundamental for running THIS data? I hardly believe it.

    Well the Kemper's just a computer with knobs and input/output jacks really. There's no reason anyone couldn't write similar software for a computer with a keyboard and a mouse. I couldn't imagine why you or anyone would think this wouldn't be possible???

  • ATT: V8guitar and rgba32


    I’m not talking abort porting the existing Kemper files so they fit random plugins and do not think it’s a good idea for them to make a plug-in. I’ve tried to really explain it thoroughly, but apparently fail miserably :D

    What I talked about was just the technology behind “their digital captured sounds” and if it somehow demanded a physical unit to handle the data. I suspected it not to be the case, but since I’m not a geek, I have no clue. This in regards to other companies to just do the same profiling/capturing of sound and put it out to the masses with the exact same good result. I think it has been answered. The data is just data as every other data is. 1’s and 0’s. I was just curious if the “real tube like sound” demanded extra that a regular plug-in couldn’t handle.

    And I think you are missing my point.


    The technology behind what runs the sounds in a Kemper could it run on a PC because its just at it's basic level binary code. Answer yes.

    Can it be done easily, no because code is related to platform/operating system and all other parts of the software stack and hardware. You are missing all of these bits in between which make it harder.


    The structure of the software is optimised for the hardware typically. None of us truly know this though because its how it is developed which Kemper will keep very close as its their IP.


    Any use of the KPA tech would have to be developed by Kemper due to encryption and complexity. Its likely to be millions of lines of code. Again this is speculation...


    Can software be developed to use .KIPR files?Not easily The files are very small and hence probably only contain parameter info and the "intelligence" is in how the software uses them to generate the sound.


    Not sure how else to say this.

  • ATT: V8guitar


    Are you implying that some IT geeks or whatever cannot just buy a Kemper and analyze its data and make a similar solution pretty easy? I kinda thought that this was pretty easy for computer geeks to do this. I ask because I have no clue whatsoever.

  • Well the Kemper's just a computer with knobs and input/output jacks really. There's no reason anyone couldn't write similar software for a computer with a keyboard and a mouse. I couldn't imagine why you or anyone would think this wouldn't be possible???

    I have always been thinking, that this would be easy for the right people. But V8guitar kinda implies something else. And I ask because I’m a complete novice regarding IT.

  • ATT: V8guitar


    Are you implying that some IT geeks or whatever cannot just buy a Kemper and analyze its data and make a similar solution pretty easy? I kinda thought that this was pretty easy for computer geeks to do this. I ask because I have no clue whatsoever.

    Correct. In my experience (20 years of experience of software development), even having access to the code would be difficult. Without that access, very difficult. You can;t realistically analyse machine code and its rarely not presented in that way.


    Otherwise:


    1) After nearly 10 years on the market someone would have done it

    2) It would be a breach of Intercultural property


    Hope that makes sense.