Latency when switching rigs within a performance

  • I have a ticket and email string open with Hans in support regarding this lagging prior to the updates. Should I open a new ticket or reach out to Hans directly?

    well, ask directly to Hans if it's better to open a new ticket or not.


    anyway,


    I had a similar experience reported here but nothing about this:

    Quote

    I also get lag when adjusting parameters: I turn the knob to adjust, and it takes a second or so for the parameter to respond. This is always a lag in the audio and the parameter on the screen. Lag also occurs WHILE turning a parameter knob, that is, the parameter will move with the knob, stop, and then catch up.

  • Hello all,


    I just wanted to drop in and say that I've had the same experience as many of you have. I thought I was going nuts. lol. I can confirm that this issue didn't start until I updated to the newest software. I use Ableton to control my rig changes and thats where I first noticed it. I load up one performance and use Ableton to switch between rigs within that performance. The latency is very obvious when going from a clean rig to a distorted one. I would venture to guess that the issue is related to the recent updates and performance mode. Any solutions would be great here aside from manually stomping on the pedals. I've spoiled myself haha

    Edited once, last by jjojjo422: Wanted to add that switching rigs from the remote also feels a little slower than usual. Maybe the new software is bugged? I had to move all of my rig changes in ableton ahead slightly. A bit annoying if you have a ton of automated stuff. Thankfully I don't. :) ().

  • Wanted to add that switching rigs from the remote also feels a little slower than usual. Maybe the new software is bugged?

    I had to move all of my rig changes in ableton ahead slightly. A bit annoying if you have a ton of automated stuff. Thankfully I don't. :)

  • changes between performances are never instant because the Profiler needs a bit of time to load the 5 rigs in a performance. Only the switching between slots in the same performance is instant because the rigs are already preloaded in memory.

    OK, that makes sense.


    What can be done to minimize this delay? Does the total number of rigs or performances loaded into the KPA make a difference?


    Is the Stage faster than the rack/toaster?

  • I'm kind of having the same problem. The delay when switching on my toaster via the Remote is not so much that the audio is delayed (a little but I can live with that), but that the led and the screen take even longer to load. That used to be faster/almost instant. I'm not sure if it's time to clean up the rigs (or if that even does anything) or if something else is going on. Same with two different cables between Kemper and Remote. Just ran the latest update and no difference.

  • OK, that makes sense.


    What can be done to minimize this delay? Does the total number of rigs or performances loaded into the KPA make a difference?


    Is the Stage faster than the rack/toaster?

    The delay switching between performances is unimportant. Switching between 5 rigs in one performance is instant (audio is instant, the graphical display will lag, also unimportant). I can't imagine you'd need more than 5 rigs for one song (performance). Switching to the next performance assumes you are starting a new song

  • The delay switching between performances is unimportant. Switching between 5 rigs in one performance is instant (audio is instant, the graphical display will lag, also unimportant). I can't imagine you'd need more than 5 rigs for one song (performance). Switching to the next performance assumes you are starting a new song

    You would be wrong in that assumption. I do a lot of theater work, so 5 patches doesn't begin to cover what I need instant access to.


    My basic rig using my tube head and rack FX is set up to give me 6 gain levels on my amp switch and 30 FX patches with no more than 2 switch moves, all instant.


    Not everyone operates in the realm of 3 minute pop songs.

  • Surely the pauses between musical performances in theatre a greater than 250ms? My gcx switcher can switch instantly to whichever preset is required, but in the digital modeling/profiling realm all pro products are going to have a small gap before selecting the next bank, it's how they're designed. I'm not trying to sound condescending, it's just a matter of planning ahead

  • Surely the pauses between musical performances in theatre a greater than 250ms?

    Have you ever played a Broadway-style show? Many of them will have periods of 20-25 minutes with no break, cycling through a half-dozen or more musical styles and often several instruments - particularly the newer ones. Then the bow/curtain call music is almost always a composite of every theme in the show playing 16 bars of each, then jumping to another. That one "song" can be a three instrument, 15-patch monster.


    There is a reason I have asked the question, and "planning ahead" doesn't address it.


    Beyond that is the fact that I generally do not have the time to build a full set of custom patches for each show. For example, last weekend I played a 20-song concert with a group of local actor/singers. One read-through before the show, then perform. Basically sight-reading onstage, with no chance to "plan ahead" for anything. I have to be able to jump to damn near any combination in real-time. This weekend I'm doing a full production, but it was a late call and I didn't get the book until tech week (it was literally on the stand when I walked into the first run-through). Again, no time for building custom patches for the whole show (and this one doesn't even have an intermission - it's straight through).


    I'll say it again - not every guitarist lives in the three-minute pop song world where you work in a single musical style, rehearse things to death before you hit the stage and always have time to make adjustments.


    Quote

    the digital modeling/profiling realm all pro products are going to have a small gap before selecting the next bank, it's how they're designed.

    Helix has snapshots, and Fractal has scenes and channels within preset blocks. Both allow immediate switching to a much larger number of patches than 5. Fractal's approach is not terribly user-friendly, and would require a very expensive MIDI controller; Helix is easier to work with.


    I prefer the sound of the the Kemper and would not replace my Bogner with a Helix. Fractal, though, allows me to build a grid of 8 scenes and 4 amp channels in a single preset (total 32 patches), and with MIDI you can set it up to switch combinations of blocks and channels within a preset with a single switch. Kemper only gives me 5 total.


    Hence, my question. If I could do something to reduce that latency, I can make the Kemper work for me. Without that, I'm pushed to my second choice, the Axe-FX.


    Here's an honest question, though. In the 90s I went through a variety of rack FX units. I never ran into switching delay like this, and in fact I still have a Quadraverb in my rack. 128 patches, all effectively instant. 30 years later and the new stuff can't do what we had back then? Really?

  • Here's an honest question, though. In the 90s I went through a variety of rack FX units. I never ran into switching delay like this, and in fact I still have a Quadraverb in my rack. 128 patches, all effectively instant. 30 years later and the new stuff can't do what we had back then? Really?

    i’m not 100% sure but I think the scenario with effects like Quadraverb etc is a little bit different. In these cases we typically had an analog dry signal path with the effect on top so the analog path wouldn’t need to change so there wouldn’t be any gap anyway. I can’t remember if my old Quadraverb was full dry through or not but it probably wouldn’t have mattered anyway as I ran a little 8 channel 1U rack mixer to run the FX in parallel anyway.

  • i’m not 100% sure but I think the scenario with effects like Quadraverb etc is a little bit different. In these cases we typically had an analog dry signal path with the effect on top so the analog path wouldn’t need to change so there wouldn’t be any gap anyway. I can’t remember if my old Quadraverb was full dry through or not but it probably wouldn’t have mattered anyway as I ran a little 8 channel 1U rack mixer to run the FX in parallel anyway.

    Yeah, I get what you're saying. but the basic premise stands - there was/is no perceptible delay when changing among a wide range of patches with the old-school rack FX units. I tried the Kemper without ever even considering the possibility that digital gear had actually gone backwards in this regard, and got burned by it.

  • I don’t have any of my old rack FX anymore to test this but I do wonder if those old devices were really as seamless as we recall or if we are just remembering with rose tinted glasses (mix metaphors I know but you get the point ?)

    Well, I played a gig with my Quadraverb last night (and the night before that, and many. many nights over the years). Patch changes are effectively immediate, no matter where I go in the list. Yes, it has fewer features and less functionality, but it's also 30 years old.


    No rose colored glasses involved here.


    Think about this for a moment - if you pressed a channel select button on a regular tube amp and it took that long to change, what would your opinion of it be? If you went to use your wah pedal and it took a quarter second to turn on, would you think that was OK?


    I'm not trying to be overly critical, but I honestly don't get why anyone would try to defend this as being "normal".

  • Yeah, I get what you're saying. but the basic premise stands - there was/is no perceptible delay when changing among a wide range of patches with the old-school rack FX units. I tried the Kemper without ever even considering the possibility that digital gear had actually gone backwards in this regard, and got burned by it.

    Well,

    Why don‘t you copy the rigs for one show with suitable titles to the browser area? So you may stack great many number of rigs.

    Greetings

    Joachim

  • Well,

    Why don‘t you copy the rigs for one show with suitable titles to the browser area? So you may stack great many number of rigs.

    Greetings

    Joachim

    There's no good way to access them directly in Browser mode. Scrolling through 20 rigs while changing guitars and watching for a cue is not feasible.

  • Here's an honest question, though. In the 90s I went through a variety of rack FX units. I never ran into switching delay like this, and in fact I still have a Quadraverb in my rack. 128 patches, all effectively instant. 30 years later and the new stuff can't do what we had back then? Really?

    There was some horrible digital stuff in the 90's too. I recall my brother having a Zoom something or other he was using live (different league, I realise) that had a large delay selecting the next patch.

    Ever since experiencing that thing one of the first things I've tested when choosing new digital gear is the latency between patches. After researching (most likely on this forum) I was aware before I bought the Kemper that it would behave in this manner and, although a step backwards from previous gear in having instant access to every patch (TC G Force in my case, although the Kemper is so much more capable), I decided I could work within those limitations.


    Now you're aware of the Kemper's limitations, you just have to decide whether you can work with them or not.


    P.S. I'm only trying to help, not argue.

    P.P.S. I don't play 3 minute pop songs (any more)

    ?

  • Ever since experiencing that thing one of the first things I've tested when choosing new digital gear is the latency between patches. After researching (most likely on this forum) I was aware before I bought the Kemper that it would behave in this manner and, although a step backwards from previous gear in having instant access to every patch (TC G Force in my case, although the Kemper is so much more capable), I decided I could work within those limitations.


    Now you're aware of the Kemper's limitations, you just have to decide whether you can work with them or not.

    All true. My reason for posting is to ensure that there isn't a "hidden" way to avoid or minimize the latency that I don't know about. Kemper's sound is my first choice, but I really need to be able to access more than just 5 patches directly.


    Quote

    P.S. I'm only trying to help, not argue.

    P.P.S. I don't play 3 minute pop songs (any more)

    ?

    All good! Asking questions to dig into the issue isn't arguing at all - it's helpful.


    It just seems that every time I have asked this question or similar, the first response is "why do you need more than 5 presets for a song?". I realize that a lot of people do work that way, but it is not universal.


    What I would love to be able to to is to set up a grid, where rig slots 1-5 are the different amp gain profiles, and then every performance page is different FX preset. With the "Keep Slot" setting, the two could be independently selected....but the latency kills that approach.:(