Dull, Muffed Sound? Understanding the problem, Solution

This is my journey from the disappointment of how bad the purchased profiles sound to understanding the problem and the solution. Maybe it will also help someone ...

1. UNDERSTANDING WHAT WE HEAR.

If we hear a real amp in a sweet point, we do not hear the real sound of the equipment itself. We hear a mixture of speakers membrane sound with heavily modified freq characteristics of the speaker in the place where we stand + the amount of reflections from the room. If we listen to Kemper profiles on YouTube, they seem great to us because they sound similar to when we are standing in a room 3-4m from the amplifier. BUT ATTENTION: In the vast majority of sound examples on YouTube we hear sound directly from the KEMPER output to the DAW, which already sounds like Sweet point sound of amp + room. BUT IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SOUND THAT COMING FROM THE SOURCE ITSELF. (The sound source in our case is the membrane of the speaker). You have to keep this in mind when you listen to YouTube demos.

(It's also better to just listen to the audio of the demo without watching the video. This way the sound can be evaluated much better. Try it...)

Such profiles sounds dull and covered when played live. This is because the sound of the source itself is replaced by the sound from the sweet point+room. But no worries. It will sound very suitable on the recording.

2. SOLUTION FOR LIVE PLAYING:

For this purpose, we need a profile made directly from the sound source. Therefore, if you want good sound for live performance, you need to use DIRECT or MERGED profiles. For these profiles, you must use IRs captured with a very close microphone to achieve the sound of the source. (one of the best IRs are for example on celestionplus.com). All you have to do is select the correct IR for the DIRECT profile. The RIG created in this way usually only needs to be fine-tuned to our taste.

3. EMERGENCY SOLUTION:

If you have purchased many STUDIO profiles or do not have the budget to buy new DIRECT profiles, the best way is to try to replace the CAB module with the most suitable

(or brighter) IR. If you don't have it first try to find more suitable CAB and then adjust Hi SHIFT, CHARACTER and PURE CAB. By combining these three parameters, very useful natural-sounding results can be achieved. Only then try adjust the EQ and DEFINITION in the AMP for the last fine-tuning of the sound. It is best not to use headphones, but rather monitors if possible. This procedure is not perfect, but usable results can be achieved (sometimes even very good results...)

FINAL THOUGHTS:

I had to understand that the profiles intended for use in a recording must be different from the live playing profiles. From a good profile for live playing, it is much easier to make a good profile for a studio work than vice versa. I must always keep this in mind when buying profiles.

No, quite the opposite. When you use such a profile for live playing, there is that effect. Imagine you are playing your amplifier. The real sound is right on the speaker membrane. From there, it spreads into space to where you stand. For the purpose of recording, remote microphones are also used in the studio to capture the best sound at the sweet point. The KEMPER profile made in this way is not suitable for live play. Therefore, if you compare the sound of your amplifier and such a profile when you play live via FRFR, monitor or PA box, the sound sounds dull.

If you use such a profile in a song in the DAW, usually only small adjustments according to your taste will be enough to sound good. At least that is my experience with KEMPER profiles from M.BRITT, TONE JUNKIE, CHOPTONES, etc.

The only thing that works well is the DIRECT profile + IR (or CAB) with microphones placed very close. At least for my ears....

If I need some sound, I first look for a sample of the raw sound of the amplifier.

Here is an example of what I used as a template for SLASH sound:

First I chose the introduction to the song Sweet child ... where only the guitar sounds

Then I found a preview of a raw Marshall sound of a similar nature. Especially one where you can't hear the sound from the room, but direct from the microphone close placed to the box. The preview starts at 1:42

Then I was looking for the most similar DIRECT profiles + IR which gives me the best result. And finaly I did adjustment the sound according to my ears.

I have bought a lot of Marshall profiles. Many of them are ala SLASH SOUND. But neither sounds like the result I achieved this way.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're asking. Once again: Even if you buy the STUDIO profile witch was close miced, its settings of the microphone and the used speaker were made (usually) by the creator of the profile so that the sound (sound from the microphone output + additional sound adjustment) sounds the same as in the sweet point. (You buy this sound like a ready-made mixed cocktail.)

So you got a snapshot of the resulting sound projection at some specific point in the room because it was intentionally done that way.

Because that's how it's used to be properly by making a song in a studio.

But you didn't bought a snapshot of the sound source itself - but only the resulting sound cocktail.

This is the right way to use it directly into some song in the DAW. All you have to do is fine-tune it to your taste and it sounds OK in the song. But for live performance, the situation is different. I'm talking about the fact that if, for example, you practice guitar at home with such a STUDIO profile, it just sounds dull in your headphones or monitors - 99% of STUDIO profiles sound like that. I know it: I've bought a lot of profiles of M.Britt, Tone Junkie, Top Jimmy, Choptones, Selah Sound, Big Hairy Profiles ... they all sound the same dull if I just play the guitar through monitors or headphones! It just doesn't sound like practicing a guitar on a real amp. The same situation was with the band when I used the STUDIO profile to play guitar through my monitor (good quality almost linear 12 inch PA box). I searched for a long time until I realized that the only rescue for that situacions are DIRECT profiles.

The charm of DIRECT profiles lies in how they are made. Unlike STUDIO profiles, they do not set any specific sound but rather general universal settings (in almost all I have this is the case - and I have many of them) Because it makes no sense (and it's not even possible) to mimic some sweet point sound if you're doing the profile of the amplifier itself without a speaker.

Eg: all potentiometers in EQ in the middle. Then more treble, then more mids, then more bass, then less treble, then less mids and so on...

So, for example, for SOLDANO bright lead sound was enough for me to choose a DIRECT profile with more presence and treble + use the right IR and it sounded like G. Moore in 1993 (almost....) with minimal additional sound adjustments. But the most important thing is that:

it doesn't sound like that from the line directly to the DAW, but the final listening when I play standing 3 meters from the monitors is like that. And if I want to use this sound in a song in DAW, it can be tuned for this very easily.

No, I'm not saying that. I don't think room microphones are used on a large scale. Quite the contrary. I think that mainly a close microphone is used, or several close microphones. (But often when listening carefully, I still hear a small portion of the sound from the room.) The problem is their location. I say that the resulting sound is set to sound like a sweet point. Mainly by placing the microphone, or subsequent adjustment in KEMPER, etc. I don't have to theorize much. My ears tell me it's true. Almost all STUDIO profiles that I have sound like a microphone placed in a place on the diaphragm where the speaker sounds full and fat in the recording situation, which is actually similar to a sweet point in space. But that's not the general sound of the whole speaker. It is the sound of a point on the diaphragm that simulates the loss of treble and high mids due to the distance and directional characteristics of the speaker (sweet point).When I play with such a sound through the monitor (FRFR or PA box) the heights and high mids are attenuated again due to the distance and directional characteristic and the result is a covered dull sound. I have 25 years of experience with my amps on stage. It took quite a long time, years of practice, before I learned to sound really really good with one or two microphones in FOH. But I would never use a dull-sounding microphone on live performance like I hear on many STUDIO profiles. Of course, only if someone intentionally wants such a sound during a live performance is it okay.

Remember please, I am talking all the time about a live playing with KEMPER and problem with Studio profiles in that situation.

Quote from Wheresthedug

If the sound coming out of the KPA speaker (studio monitor, FRFR, Kabinet etc) is on axis for the player’s ear it should retain that brightness

Good point. In this situation, I should hear a sound like I'm standing in the axis of a guitar cabinet. But I can't hear it. I'm standing right in the axis of the speaker, but I can hear the sound outside the axis of the guitar cabinet. I tried this on the first day I played KEMPER because I wanted to find out why it sounds so (covered)

Quote from Wheresthedug

But you are saying that an IR is the solution and by definition must be different. However, an IR is made in exactly the same way x mics are positioned on a “sweet spot” on the diaphragm then that EQ curve is captured.

I'm not saying IR is the solution. It's taken out of context. I claim that the solution is DIRECT profile + correct IR or also CAB from KEMPER. IRs or CAB, it is not important. It is important that this connection with the DIRECT profile, because there you have a really separate amp and speaker and you are free to choose exactly the speaker sound that suits you. This is not possible in the STUDIO profile. Because the CAB module in the STUDIO profile is only a simulation of the average box. When profiling, KEMPER cannot determine which sound the amp produces and which speaker. Therefore, replacing the CAB in the STUDIO profile will destroy the original character of the amplifier sound.

Quote from Kaschko

I still don't get it. First you say the problem is that the profiles are recorded at a sweet spot, then you say dull microphones are being used. So you want them to use clear microphones that aren't aimed at the sweet spot but at a neutral position? Where would that be? And is that what you'd do on stage?

Whether you choose a merged profile or a studio profile, you always have the same chain of amp, speaker and mic that will go to FOH. Being able to change cabs is a different story but that wasn't the original point of your post.

Exactly.

Not trying to be rude here, I really hope to understand what you're trying to say but so far it doesn't make sense to me.

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I never said that studio profiles are recorded at a sweet point. I'm saying they're recorded to sound like you're amplifying in a sweet point. This is something completely different.

I don't think the possibility to change the CAB is a completely different story because this change also plays a significant role in the sound settings in cooperation with DIRECT profiles.

My original intention was to clarify why, in my finding, STUDIO profiles from KEMPER sound so muffy and dull when I play them at home (or on stage) through a monitor (FRFR or PA box it doesn't matter). Mainly because I read a lot of posts on the web (I don't just mean this forum) how people are disappointed when the coveted KEMPER comes to them and turns it on their monitors for the first time due to a muffled and dull sound. I was also disappointed and bought one package of profiles after another. Till I understood that it's not STUDIO profiles that are bad, but that I want to use them for something they're not made for.

Please note that I am talking about a situation where KEMPER is being compared to a real amp + speaker ( vs KEMPER + monitor.)

Not when going directly to a DAW or FOH.

I don't want to be rude either. And by no means for the fact that someone has a different opinion. Only a clash of many different opinions can bring something new, this is my attitude ...

Hello guys.

This discussion is too long and it seems to me that we are already getting lost in it. And that was definitely not my intention ....

So I just want to summarize the whole thing.

The vast majority of KEMPER STUDIO profiles sound muffin and dull playing through monitors to many of us (including me). That's a fact. Many of people write about it on the web testify to this. (For my ears, the STUDIO profiles sound a bit dull even in the DAW. But they are good enough to sound OK after a small adjustment.) There must be a reason for that. It's not a coincidence.

I have 2 monitors on the floor behind me when playing. These are quality boxes with an almost linear characteristic (within 3dB). They are about 1.5m apart aimed at me. So I stand approximately in the axis. Definitely not far from there. The distance from my ears is about 2-2.5 m. Ideal listening. Still, 99% of the STUDIO profiles I bought sounded dull.

I have bought 15 packages (M.Mritt, Tone Junkie, Choptones, DrZ, etc.). Each contains several dozen profiles. And out of so many profiles, I found only a few that sound open and airy in the situation I described above. I tried to adjust them to get an open and airy sound, but it no longer sounded natural to my ears.

DIRECT profiles solved my problem. I effortlessly achieved the sound I need.

I started analyzing why this is so. After all, the STUDIO profile should basically be DIRECT + CAB. Technically, it is. So the problem can only be in the difference of the sound which is captured in both cases. I think it's logical. And why the sound is different, and why the STUDIO profiles sound the way they did in the introductory posts.

This is my finding and everyone has the right to disagree with me if they think I am wrong. But according to my many years of experience with music and sound, that's the way it is.

Addition: I'm not English (I don't even live in England). Maybe I don't express myself clearly as I would like sometimes, maybe sometimes my text has a slightly different meaning than I think it has .... sorry for that.

Anyhow guys. Enjoy yourself and have a fun with your KEMPER.

Quote from Kaschko

I still don't get it. First you say the problem is that the profiles are recorded at a sweet spot, then you say dull microphones are being used. So you want them to use clear microphones that aren't aimed at the sweet spot but at a neutral position? Where would that be? And is that what you'd do on stage?

Please always understand my statement in the whole context. I meant they are dull for this purpose (if I want to use such captured sound again via monitors). Not dull in general - so if I use such captured sound in DAW it's OK. ( or when you are playing real amp)

Quote from lightbox

No, you can't! Fact! The Profiler does NOT capture/profile room. If you hear room, then it's either your own room ... or the SPACE effect of the Kemper. It's not the profile, 100% guaranteed

yes, I agree that this should not be heard. I mean room reverb. When I think about it, maybe it's just a certain characteristic in the middle, typical of many very short room echoes, which creates that impression