Voices. The evolution of a song I wrote to really test my skills.

  • I first wrote Voices for my 1 year anniversary learning guitar. The harmonic run was tough to do and consistently, and still is today as is getting on and off the whammy fast. I added more embellishments to the second version but forgot to include the small intro (which I think really sets the mood). The second version was recorded for my 2nd year anniversary (sorry for the tempo drop off at the end). I still need to add a bridge to extend the timestamp to over 3 minutes. I like using this song as an example of my progress. Both were recorded from a Marshall Code 50 into DAW. My 3 yr anniversary is coming up so I want to do the next iteration with my Kemper to compare progress and tone. I don't think I can ever catch up to you guys and Franjoe30, but I am trying. It's really intimidating posting these vids but I like to be inspired by your tips and critiques. All opinions welcome. Thanks!


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    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • Well what's there sounds good enough to me in an Ozzy kinda way but the issue is that its' really just a single stem on its own which makes it hard to give a lot of feedback on as only you have the whole vision in your mind.


    If the idea is for a solo guitar as the whole track then on the production side I'd reduce the gain to enhance clarity and articulation and add a little reverb to fill out the sound. I'd also rearrange it a little bit to give you more of a sense of counterpoint and lead. It's important for your audience to be able to visualize the underlying rhythm, chords and melody at all times when you're dealing with solo work.


    If it's to be a larger production then I would recommend grabbing a drum VST. If you're using GarageBand or Logic then you're in luck as they come with an excellent one. Otherwise check out Superior Drummer and it's smaller brother Easy Drummer, or BFD (short for Big effing drums), then work on arranging and layering up to create the sound you're after.


    Otherwise good job so far, keep at it!

  • I think both sound great the second version is better to my ears, looking for ward to hearing your third version.


    I think as Per said above, if you have a drum vst like EZdrummer then sticking on a drum track will completely open things up for you.


    My workflow for recording ideas is generally a drums track and a minimum if 2 rhythm guitar tracks, one panned left and one panned right. I generally pan any lead of melody guitar parts about 10% to the right. I run EZbass panned about 10-20% to the left. This forms the basis of my recordings. From there on in it's just experimenting with different tones and adjusting volumes to suit in the mix. My tracks and mixes are by no means great compared to real producers but i feel that every time i record a track i get a wee bit better at the whole recording thing.


    My advice would be to wrote and record as much as you can but make sure you have fun doing it and you'll want to keep doing it.


    There are some amazing guitarists and producers on this forum who's tracks sound fantastic and very professional so there's always someone you can turn to if you need advice.


    Just keep up writing and recording your great tunes.

  • I plan to start working on drum tracks at the end of the year. I want to get a little more experience and practice in guitar since I will have to give up some of that time to do drums. I just hate to not be totally focused on guitar right now. I feel naked if the guitar is not in my hand.


    I can only do this particular riff with serious gain. I tried it at lowered gain settings but it just killed the mood and the harmonics so I need to make it work. I started working on a Kemper profile for the 3rd version.


    I really appreciate the input. I feel kind of lost not being able to share my ideas with anyone and getting real-time feedback on the things I am trying to do.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • Modern drum VST’s come with big libraries of drum midi and tools to allow you to quickly find a beat and just use that as a scratchpad, you don’t need much more than that. Nothing really to learn apart from their UI, no need to get a controller nor learn how to program drums. In EZDrummer and Superior Drummer you even have a “find groove” button that lets you tap in a kick and snare and it’ll find midi loops that match and a “song creator” that will take midi you have and find intro, outro, fills, chorus etc for that loop. I’d go try the demo out, with tools like that you can mostly focus on the guitar and building song and track structure and not have to spend much time or thought on the drums until you want to dial in a bit tighter later on in the process.

  • I have all those drum plug-ins. The problem is that I need some tricky drum work and fills to the songs I write. And I have some with tempo changes so a simple beat pattern won't work on most. I'm kind of feeling pressure to go find a drummer to work with in my studio.


    I don't know how far I will get with music but I do want to try and go all the way.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • I have all those drum plug-ins. The problem is that I need some tricky drum work and fills to the songs I write. And I have some with tempo changes so a simple beat pattern won't work on most. I'm kind of feeling pressure to go find a drummer to work with in my studio.


    I don't know how far I will get with music but I do want to try and go all the way.

    If you are currently writing songs with a view to recording them and then hoping to play them live then NOW is the time to start trying out EZdrummer if you already have it. The longer you leave experimenting with VST's like EZdrummer the harder it is going to be later on when trying to create the complex drum and fill patterns you say you are needing to achieve. Also, use it as a guitar practice tool, playing along to a drum track will greatly improve your fundamental guitar skills. There's no point being a virtuoso guitar player if you can't cut the mustard playing tight rhythms with a drummer, this will keep your rhythm chops up. Trust me, its ALL for the greater good.


    Also, experimenting with drum tracks will lead to creative inspiration on the guitar, again, trust me, it's worth it.

  • yeah I highly recommend jamming over drums to tighten your rhythm skills and impro . This is where I developed my skills the most , that and also playing in the local jazzband with a single clean tone from the only amps available at the school , some random solid state amp.


    A single drum box or plugin is great , I used and still do riffworks great intuitive beatbox , totally worth the 50 bucks, there is even a great free version. check my shitty 1st ever track I recorded 9 years ago ( wow times flees ) with riffworks and my kemper.


    I think the opposite of your method is a good way to think out of the box : just throw in a beat you like , use the 'scan' fonction from riffworks , it's a great tool that will match your exact feel and internal rhythm / metrics. It's fantastic as it will adapt to you and not the opposite.


    Once you're in a good vibe just jam over a good groove and stack some layers , a palm muted lick or a clean part for instance. and start doing some fills over it until you find a good base, then some chord changes.


    This is how I write my tracks most of the time ( now I hire a great freelancer drummer with specific grooves that I order ) : always starting from the inspiring drum groove, then layer the chords & melodies.


    I also still start a drumbeat everyday to practice funk chops , my mandatory musician discipline with vocal practise.


    Easy drummer is also great , less spontaneous than riffworks for sure, but you got the search function.


    The key is to have fun while practicing until you're a good rhythmic guitarist ( took me a few years TBH)

  • There's no point being a virtuoso guitar player if you can't cut the mustard playing tight rhythms with a drummer, this will keep your rhythm chops up. Trust me, its ALL for the greater good.

    I guess I am off to do some drums today.


    A single drum box or plugin is great , I used and still do riffworks great intuitive beatbox , totally worth the 50 bucks, there is even a great free version. check my shitty 1st ever track I recorded 9 years ago ( wow times flees ) with riffworks and my kemper.

    Nothing wrong with that 1st, waraba !


    Thanks for the feedback! Much appreciated from everyone.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • Larry, I couldn't agree more with what everyone else about the value of working with bass & drum plugins. If you talk to Joe, you'll find that these tools are also what helps him maintain his status as the Energizer songwriter. I've been at this guitar thing for quite a few decades (you'd think I'd be better at it by now), and I've done it both ways - just writing riffs / guitar only, and writing with a rhythm section behind me. The latter is far, far more inspiring and motivating.


    As for your quest to focus on guitar skills, when you've got the right feel behind you, you'll find yourself going places and performing at a level that you didn't even know you had in you. It really does make that much of a difference.


    Like a lot of folks here, I make a living as a software developer. Languages and tech are constantly changing, so I'm always having to pick up new skills just to keep the resume marketable. Recently, after 30 years in the biz, I discovered something surprising about myself. I really, really don't enjoy learning. I enjoy doing. Learning is something I simply endure in order to get back to the doing.


    Regarding skills for EZ Drummer, etc. I see it a lot like buying gear. I can buy crap gear and save a lot of money. Or I can just spend the extra money and buy something that's good quality. I tend to do the latter because the pain of an expensive purchase goes away pretty quickly. The frustrations of having crap gear, on the other hand, lives on day after day. Forever. So, as much as I don't enjoy learning, the time and experience of getting up to speed on something goes away quickly. The benefits of having that skill live on, day after day. Forever.


    I also see your current predicament regarding guitar vs. learning as the difference between short and long term thinking. Right now it's all guitar, all the time, because you really want to get to the point where you can enjoy those abilities. However, in some ways that's short term thinking regarding your growth as a guitarist. If you look at the big picture for the long term, becoming fluent with rhythm section plugins is just like learning a scale. A moment where time seems to stand still as you endure the learning process, then a lifetime of increased playing abilities because you did.


    I own both EZ and Superior drummer. As Per mentioned, both have good interfaces, but you really don't need Superior at this stage of the game. EZ sounds great, and has a very fluid interface for finding the right grooves. I don't do time signature changes as often as you, but here's my basic workflow for the simple verse / chorus / bridge types of things that I do. I have a general groove in mind, so I use the Tap function and put in the kick and snare, which is the primary signature of a beat. Takes only a few seconds. I then audition the beats, and each time I hear one that sounds like a possibility, I drag it onto a MIDI track in Cubase that's already pointing to EZ. I don't worry about position, it's just a bucket to put them in. I repeat this for the main sections (verse, chorus, bridge - solo is usually just one of those three). I then go to the MIDI track and listen to each of the candidates, dragging the stronger ones out of the way and deleting the weaker ones until I'm down to just the ones that work for the song.


    I then do some copy / pasting and build up the the MIDI track, again by doing one verse, one chorus and one bridge. Once they're correct, I then copy / paste as many verse, chorus and bridge sections as I need, dropping in Cubase markers for each for ease of navigation. This entire process usually takes five to ten minutes. In the grand scheme of things, that ain't much. A few minutes effort and I now have a decent drum part to play to. Sure, I'll come back later and tweak with fills, etc. but that's not where my head's at right now. I just want to play the song, and this gives me the feel, so I want the shortest path to getting there. Tweaking comes later.


    Additionally, I have a drop-dead simple plugin called 4Front Bass. It's a Fender style bass, zero tweakable options. It sounds like what a bass would sound like if you plug it into the console (which is often how bass is tracked in the studio). In addition to getting comfortable with EZ Drummer, I took the time to get comfortable with the keyboard / piano roll editor in Cubase. So, I have another track for bass and I just click in the bass line I hear in my head. Again, because I took the time to learn it (which really wasn't that hard), I've got a bass part down in a matter of minutes. One verse, one chorus, one bridge, then copy / paste. Tweaking comes later.


    Ask Joe and I'm sure he'll tell you that his workflow is a variation on this theme. And while it's not for me to speak for him, because he set aside a little time go get comfortable with these basic tools, I would imagine that the time he spends cranking out all these great songs works out to 10% getting the rhythm section down, 90% just playing guitar.


    Whether I'm writing a song, software, books, videos or whatever, my creativity tends to be very modal. When my head is in one space it's difficult to think about a different space. So, when I'm being a musician, the last thing my head wants is to be in computer mode. It totally takes me away from the guitar & music. Before I learned to be a programmer, I didn't even know how to type. So, I printed out one of those keyboard / finger diagrams from a textbook and taped it to my monitor, and when I typed I forced myself to use the right fingers. It was tedious as hell. But I did it, and now it's muscle memory, so I no longer type. I just think into the computer and my fingers move automatically. It's the same with these tools. Get them into muscle memory and then you can fly.


    Once you start playing to a rhythm section, you'll be amazed at how much faster you progress as a guitarist. And that's the long term goal, right?

    Kemper remote -> Powered toaster -> Yamaha DXR-10

  • I run EZbass panned about 10-20% to the left.

    I fell into that trap a few decades ago, Joe.


    I encourage you to go dead-centre. It's a high-energy instrument so it eats into your headroom big-time; distributing that energy evenly between the L & R speakers therefore makes sense, both for bass and kick.


    Also, you want the kick and bass to work together consistently no matter your listening orientation, something that won't happen if you separate their panning.


    This is general advice, of course; there can always be exceptions made for artistic reasons, but in such cases I reckon the changes from the norm should be obvious, such as bass in the left channel and drums in the right. Rare these days, but it illustrates the point.

  • Thanks Monkey_man, i'll give that a try. Every day is a school day

  • I was playing a bassline with my guitar yesterday using transpose and my wife said I had to pluck the strings with my fingertips like a real bassist instead of using a pick --so I have that critic to deal with. :rolleyes:


    I assume once I get all the tracks together (guitar, bass, drums) then it should be easy for the song to tell me how to pan instruments. I like double-tracked guitars on heavy rhythm parts so those would go L and R. Kick and snare in center, and cymbals L and R (I guess). I do like when floor toms are rotated L and R in some songs so I may do the same when used for a drum fill.


    If I use delay and reverb, especially reverb on drums, should I use a reverb plugin to use globally for guitar and drums instead of Kemper reverb and a separate plugin reverb for drums?

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • Thanks Monkey_man, i'll give that a try. Every day is a school day

    Yeah Joe. We learn and learn and then just when we know everything we need to know we die. :D:pinch:

    If I use delay and reverb, especially reverb on drums, should I use a reverb plugin to use globally for guitar and drums instead of Kemper reverb and a separate plugin reverb for drums?

    Ideally in most cases you'd want to use plugins for both IMHO 'cause it's a mixing scenario. Obvious exception would be if you were after a particular effect such as something the Kemper Delay can give you that you can't reproduce with plugins.


    As for using the same plugin 'verb on both geetar and drums, whilst in-theory it might look good on paper in terms of simulating a realistic sound stage, you may find that you can get better separation and things to pop better if you tailored differing algorithms to each instrument. This may give you a more-exciting mix result.


    The technical reason for this might well be that the simulated room modes ("resonances") are unlikely to suit / compliment the sound of two instruments that differ so much sonically.