Thinking of going FRFR with Kemper

  • First, let me say this, I have had my kemper less than 2 weeks, and EVERYTHING I own is gone besides a matrix poweramp, power conditioner, 2 VHT 4x12's, and my wireless, THAT IS IT. My whole entire world has been completely turned upside down with the little satanic toaster...The thing is just mind blowing.



    So anyways, I have seen all the talk about FRFR, something I thought I would NEVER (I know, no one has ever said that! :D) do. Just didn't seem like it was for me. But I saw all the Hype (for lack of a better term) about the RCF NX12SMA, and it really got me thinking about it!



    Questions: How loud is this thing? I am a metal head, and love a loud big huge thunderous sound, could this thing even compare to my 2 VHT delvierance 4x12s (my favorite cabs of all time by the way)???



    How big sounding is it? Is it worth the price? I was planning on running a signal to the FOH anyways, so if I have the setup I have now (my 2 4x12s and power amp are my "monitor" :D) Is there really a need to sell all of that, and get the NX12SMA? This is a HUGE step for me, I have very hesitant to do this, but it seems quite intriguing. I mean, I can't imagine me bringing this little freakin wedge, and my satanic toaster to band practice, this is just crazy! Would this really be loud and big enough sounding to fulfill my tone needs? The problem is, I really have no way of testing this system out, as no one around here in central florida carries it, (atleast that I know of, Guitar center does not)



    One of the biggest reasons it is crossing my mind is, Getting away from the idea of basicall having 2 patches for every "single" tone, aka one for my monitor on stage, and one for the FOH. Thanks for the help guys!



    Chris

  • To get the same sound pressure you will need 2 of them, the switch from real cabs to FRFR is always a bit traumatic, you need to get used to, but IMHO it is worthy. Doesn't matter what you play the NX can get loud enough to blow your eardrums away, but is different then having 2 4x12 flapping your pants. At best you should try them at stage level

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


  • Thanks guitarnet. After some research, I am also looking at the EV ELX series, which seems to be a great sounding speaker, and gives the the RCF a run for its money, at a much cheaper price. I found a great price on a few of them ( in the 200 to 250 range used), and was wondering, when going FRFR, does it matter what size speaker you use with these? For example, I found the EV ELX 215 (2 15s! :D :D :D) for a great price, around 400 bucks, sounds like you can't beat these for the price. is that too much for any reason? Again, I do want a huge sound, and don't really care about the size of the unit . they also make as we know the 112, and 115, 118 etc. Just haven't found a clear answer on this. Thanks!



    Chris

  • I use 2 Mackie SA1531z speakers in my studio / practice room for the band mix and my KPA sounds huge. They are the previous generation before the HD's. We use the same type as tops along with Yorkville LS800p subs for live. Rarely do we push them hard unless we're outdoors. You may want to Google the HD's for reliability....Mackie shifted production to China several years ago. My live PA tops are not Chinese and have been 100% reliable for 5 years of weekend gigging. My studio Mackies are Chinese and I've had to re-solder bad joints on the incoming power board on both speakers....and they live an easy life in my studio. Of course, these things get fixed as new production gets settled in so it may not be an issue anymore.


    bd

  • THANK YOU musicman! I'd really love as much input on the mackie stuff as possible, as I can not find any first hand reviews on the 1531 wtih the KPA, so this is nice to here, and anything else you have to say. That is kinda of crappy to hear about the reliability issues though...have you compared teh mackie stuff to anything else FRFR wise? See any reason to go with something else vs the mackie? Any way to make these fart out on palm mutes with low tuned guitars/7 strings?

  • I use a EV ELX112p with my Kemper. I like it...never had a chance to check out the NX12SMA.


    FRFR is a different experience than traditional guitar cabs. As others have mentioned, there can be an adjustment period.


    With a "full range" PA cab you are hearing what the audience hears, a more "polished" sound. The sound of a mic'd guitar cab.


    Also, it doesn't feel like traditional guitar cabs, not quite as immediate...This only seems to bother guitar players,because we're used to the sound of a guitar cab...


    My suggestion would be to try out some PA stuff, and see how you like it before unloading the 4x12's

  • To OP, have you considered going with some kind of In Ear monitor System, and just run it direct to FOH? Less stuff to carry, and works great, if you have a good system. I've been doing this for a long time, all i do is ask the sound guys to leave a powered monitor in front of me for extra feedback/sustain etc.. works for me.. :)

  • digitaltube, it has crossed my mind, but I honestly know nothing about it. The problem with clubs we sometimes play in is, well, you don't always have a "great" PA, or maybe we do, and I am just not aware of it. I know the clubs (atleast in town, who knows when we play out of town) that have good sound, and the others that don't, but I guess it doesn't matter, because the sound guy is controlling your sound no matter what you feed him (traditional guitar rig, KPA rig etc) right??? So I guess it is an option. however, as a metal guitar player, I still think I need that big sound on stage, and I definitely need something at practice with. I guess I could sell one of my cabs to fund a small FRFR system to see how I like it vs my guitar rig, who knows. I plan to go to my local guitar center monday or tuesday and check out some stuff in the pro audio section, I have never done that, and that will probably be the best option.

  • I plan to go to my local guitar center monday or tuesday and check out some stuff in the pro audio section, I have never done that, and that will probably be the best option.


    Ya, it's true that lot's of clubs everywhere won't have the best PA systems, especially monitor systems onstage so the whole band can hear each other, so ya you might need to get your own monitor system, GC usually has a 30 day money back, so there you go. :)
    Take a few systems out to the rehearsals or gigs and see how it compares.. keep in mind some of the best stuff won't be available at GC like the RCF powered speakers etc.

  • That is true, however I am not prepared to drop that kind of cash on RCf stuff yet, especially since I will never be able to play one, and see if I can justify the difference. Why do some of you like FRFR? I think I will like it because A: I will be able to dial in my real guitar tone going to the PA, a big plus and B: I think I will enjoy not having such a beamy guitar sound that you get wih 4x12s, I really do.

  • THANK YOU musicman! I'd really love as much input on the mackie stuff as possible, as I can not find any first hand reviews on the 1531 wtih the KPA, so this is nice to here, and anything else you have to say. That is kinda of crappy to hear about the reliability issues though...have you compared teh mackie stuff to anything else FRFR wise? See any reason to go with something else vs the mackie? Any way to make these fart out on palm mutes with low tuned guitars/7 strings?

    Medic,


    I run PA Direct (no mic'd cabs) so my sound as heard out front is nearly all through the mains. I use earbuds as my FRFR solution in combination with a stereo keyboard amp (500w stereo) aimed back at me like a monitor wedge. The amp is for sustain/feedback volume...the earbuds are what I hear. So, my Mackies carry my full band mix including KPA. My PA is EQ'd using an analyzer for each venue and that helps us have repeatable reproduction of tones in different rooms. My patches don't sound good at Venue A and crappy at Venue B....they are very consistent. That's a common issue when relying on the PA for 100% of your tone...especially someone else's. Players often blame the modeller (ok....now Profile device) when its a room EQ issue.


    I gave up on having a wall of sound on stage a long time ago. Guitarists like it but out front, its hard to control, We all wear earbuds and stage volume is relatively low.....so I may not be the right guy to ask about getting a 4-12 style sound onstage. I'm going for a studio sound in my buds and to the audience.


    The KPA has attracted a lot of amp users who are now struggling with the paradigm shift we modeler users underwent a few years earlier. Those staying with old skool cabs are fighting the enevitable and may never be happy....FRFR is the way to go but requires a change of approach and expectations. The KPA output is "perfect" so send it to an EQ corrected FRFR and your done.


    As for the Mackies, EQ corrected, they sound great. Going straight into one with no EQ as a monitor, I don't know. The KPA does have a limited EQ for its output so that helps.


    The FRFR quest is to find one with massive headroom (read: 1000w or more) and a flat natural response. Most of the 12" and 15" powered speakers by top venders are ok....a few are standouts. A test drive and other user's consensus is your best bet. Good luck in your quest!


    bd

  • I'm running PA direct (have since I bought the Kemper in february) and have a 4x12 and a tube head for 'backup' onstage in case something happens. I had been running the monitor out into the tube amp fx return so I had a cranked 4x12 onstage, but now I'm using a pair of really inexpensive alto 600watt 10" powered monitors in stereo. Since they are pointed at my face I don't need as much onstage volume, our sound guy is happier, and when I change patches it really makes a huge difference.


    I do have a pair of QSC HPR122i's that sound awesome and better than the Altos, but they were around $1k each and are much larger and heavy as hell! The Altos are a bit of a compromise but I think they sound fine.


    Pete

  • I'm running PA direct (have since I bought the Kemper in february) and have a 4x12 and a tube head for 'backup' onstage in case something happens. I had been running the monitor out into the tube amp fx return so I had a cranked 4x12 onstage, but now I'm using a pair of really inexpensive alto 600watt 10" powered monitors in stereo. Since they are pointed at my face I don't need as much onstage volume, our sound guy is happier, and when I change patches it really makes a huge difference.


    I do have a pair of QSC HPR122i's that sound awesome and better than the Altos, but they were around $1k each and are much larger and heavy as hell! The Altos are a bit of a compromise but I think they sound fine.


    Pete

    Right on, Pete! And only YOU hear the Altos so no big deal. The fact that you hear a big difference with patch changes tells you just how colored and altered that 4-12 amp really was. Everything sounded like that amp instead of like the profiles.


    bd

  • Just in case you don't bond with the whole FRFR path and decide to go "amp-in-room", I found a great solution that rivals my 4X12's. In fact (I never though I'd say this) I think I like it BETTER.


    Basically it's a Tech 21 Power Engine 60 with an EV12L. The downside is the EV doesn't fit very well, and making it fit voids the warranty on the amp.


    Overall it's a small, compact rig that sounds UNBELIEVABLY great. Small enough for a jam session. Loud enough for a larger stage. The sound man gets a great sound direct from Kemper, so he's happy. I get great "real amp" tone & feel out of the PE60 so I'm happy. Best of both worlds IMO without having to spend a ton of money.


    Hope that helps.

  • Any way to make these fart out on palm mutes with low tuned guitars/7 strings?

    LOL! Yeah, they'll "fart out"....any amp/speaker will when clipped....some worse than others. The SA1531z is Tri-Amped so clipping the bass won't send harsh sounds to the mids or highs....or vise versa. They are 3 separate isolated amps with limiters inside one speaker. Thats why I said the Holy Grail (sorry....watching Indiana Jones now) is lots of headroom (power) so you never drive too hard. Solid State Amps should NEVER be overdriven if possible.


    bd