Is my Kemper amplifying bass/low mids too much or are my guitars crap?

    I think there is a wider question that has been floating around is the addition of frequencies in the profiling process.


    What is interesting for me is, if that was the case, then there should be a difference between profiles created years ago vs today....unless its how the KPA responds to profiles?? Do Kemper even recognize this ?


    ckemper - I think your views on this would be useful at this point, as it seems to be an increasing view on the accuracy of profiling?

    Quote from Kim_Olesen

    Why don’t you just go to your output eqs and lower the low end. I did that right from the start.

    Because each amp I own has its own distinct roll off point. Each one has different tone stack behaviour and frequency range.

    This isn’t a case of applying a band aid ‘fix all’ situation or slapping an EQ across the outputs would even things out.
    It needs sorting at source.
    It’s currently not profiling the low end accurately. It’s adding something that doesn’t exist on my original amps.

    The refine process completely ignores the problem.

    If it gets sorted out, it’s a win situation for everyone.

    Quote from Vinny Burns

    Because each amp I own has its own distinct roll off point. Each one has different tone stack behaviour and frequency range.

    This isn’t a case of applying a band aid ‘fix all’ situation or slapping an EQ across the outputs would even things out.
    It needs sorting at source.
    It’s currently not profiling the low end accurately. It’s adding something that doesn’t exist on my original amps.

    The refine process completely ignores the problem.

    If it gets sorted out, it’s a win situation for everyone.

    A much more eloquent answer than mine :)

    Interesting topic.


    Often when making profiles, I put an EQ pedal before the actual amplifier to reduce the lows going into the amp.


    Once the profiles are in the Kemper, I do two things:

    - Use a Graphic EQ as 1st stomp (before Noise Gate) to reduce lows and boost mids.

    - Set the AMP EQ to pre and use a Studio EQ after the amp.


    DUMB GUY OBSERVATIONS

    I am currently working on a VST Distortion (I am a noob) and have a High Pass filter before the distortion stages. I often have to set the cutoff frequency as high as 250-300 Hz. No actual data for anyone here to learn from this, I was just amazed how much I had to cut the lows before the gain stages to not be flubby.


    I recently added a compressor before gain and this requires even more low end removal before the gain stages.


    I added Bass/Treble filters after the gain stages and this seems to bring back the lows (that I just tried to remove) more than I expected. Which reinforces the idea to use the Kemper EQ before the amp. This will remove any effects they are introducing into the sound. The Studio or Graphic EQs will give you more control over the tone. And give you High/Low cuts. The Kemper Bass control is probably similar to mine and could be adding the flub back in.


    Filters do not immediately stop frequencies, they have slopes that always let some cut freqs thru. And that is probably why I am seeing these numbers. I probably have selected the wrong types of filters and roll-off slopes also.


    Just anecdotal observations. I expected to roll off at maybe 80-100 Hz to get rid of flub. I was way off.

    What is going into the Kemper to be profiled is fine.
    The problem low frequencies are being added BY the profiling process.

    Sure, but wouldn't it be easier if you didn't have to take all those steps?

    Think for yourself, or others will think for you wihout thinking of you

    Henry David Thoreau

    Like 2
    Quote from Vinny Burns

    Because each amp I own has its own distinct roll off point. Each one has different tone stack behaviour and frequency range.

    This isn’t a case of applying a band aid ‘fix all’ situation or slapping an EQ across the outputs would even things out.
    It needs sorting at source.
    It’s currently not profiling the low end accurately. It’s adding something that doesn’t exist on my original amps.

    The refine process completely ignores the problem.

    If it gets sorted out, it’s a win situation for everyone.

    I think people completely forget that the sound where the mic is placed in front of a cab, is what gets profiled. Ofcourse putting your ear where the mic is, will be harmful, but really thatis where the sound of the profile originates. It’s more bassy AND trebly, right there 4-5cm from the speaker.


    And yes, the output eqs is the blanket solution, and they fine for that. At least they’ve always done on my setup.

    And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

    Like 1
    Quote from GearJocke

    Sure, but wouldn't it be easier if you didn't have to take all those steps?

    To clarify what I was trying to say, I agree with the OP that the low seems boomy and the high mids are missing. And I would like it to be much easier to get a clear sound.


    My giant post was saying: Is it the AMP EQ that is making the profile "sound" this way? So set the AMP EQ to PRE and use a Studio or Graphic EQ after the amp so you have more control over the final "voice" being used.


    My studio monitors are not top notch so I do not have any good science to judge. On my monitors the Kemper sounds boomy and missing high mids. Getting a new amp helped. So I am asking you guys with good ears and good monitors what you think?


    I have no valid opinion. that is why I am curious to hear everyone's thoughts.

    Quote from Kim_Olesen

    I think people completely forget that the sound where the mic is placed in front of a cab, is what gets profiled. Ofcourse putting your ear where the mic is, will be harmful, but really thatis where the sound of the profile originates. It’s more bassy AND trebly, right there 4-5cm from the speaker.


    And yes, the output eqs is the blanket solution, and they fine for that. At least they’ve always done on my setup.

    The low end frequency is NOT there on the actual amp. Only on the profile. My ears backed up by a real time frequency analyser show me this.
    I already mic up the sweet spot with just the amp hiss and headphones the way I was shown by Keith Olsen back in 1991. Once the sweet spot is found and marked with a China graph pencil, it stays the same unless you change that particular speaker in that cab. This method has served me well ever since.

    I currently have 10 Marshall 4x12 1960 cabs in my live room. (I plan to sell a lot of these once my profiling session are over and just keep one of each that has a certain set of speakers in them). All my most frequently used 4x12 cabs have been marked for their sweet spots and I have been recording most of these cabs for decades with no problems.


    It’s easy to see what I am talking about if you just setup your own favourite stuff where you are happy with the low end. Put a real-time analyser in your daw. Check where your gear is actually rolling off the bottom end. This particular SLO30 is naturally rolling off steeply starting around 80hz and gone by about 60hz. Deep knob is set to zero.

    Profile your sound. Once the profile comes back, you will see that the profile has now added extra frequencies in almost a straight line that eventually roll off at 20hz.

    Quote from Kim_Olesen

    I think people completely forget that the sound where the mic is placed in front of a cab, is what gets profiled. Ofcourse putting your ear where the mic is, will be harmful, but really thatis where the sound of the profile originates. It’s more bassy AND trebly, right there 4-5cm from the speaker.


    And yes, the output eqs is the blanket solution, and they fine for that. At least they’ve always done on my setup.

    Vinny isn't comparing what he is hearing in the room with the profile. He is comparing the output through the mike and DAW to the profile so is valid.


    I don't profile much myself but a few people are calling this out so it would be good to get some input from Kemper. It also feels like its a more "recent" issue so curious if something has been changed in the profiling process.


    Only Kemper can comment on that..

    Quote from V8guitar

    Vinny isn't comparing what he is hearing in the room with the profile. He is comparing the output through the mike and DAW to the profile so is valid.


    I don't profile much myself but a few people are calling this out so it would be good to get some input from Kemper. It also feels like its a more "recent" issue so curious if something has been changed in the profiling process.


    Only Kemper can comment on that..

    Yes, spot on.
    Mic plugged into Kemper and all is monitored through my DAW from the Kemper main outputs.

    Cab is also being mic’ed in my live room next door to me while I monitor all this from my control room.
    The Kemper refine process is fine for me on all other parts of the spectrum, it’s just this added extra low end that is the problem.

    I can try and use my Focusrite 828 preamp in between the mic and Kemper and use it’s roll off filter to try and lessen what is happening with the Kemper.
    But, that doesn’t change the fact that something IS happening in that frequency area while profiling.

    Hi

    I started putting a parametric eq in the x slot and on the first page of the eq there's bass and treble controls and I'm finding adjusting these is working a treat. I drop both levels quite a lot and then turn up the eq vol on the last page to make up a bit of level lost. At least for me its working well on the profiles I've tried and I'm finding I'm not tweaking profiles but just using the x slot eq to make it sound right. If anyone tries this let me know if it works for you👍

    Quote from Vinny Burns

    I can try and use my Focusrite 828 preamp in between the mic and Kemper and use it’s roll off filter to try and lessen what is happening with the Kemper.

    This was also one of the things I do when profiling. I forgot to mention it in my post above.


    I may run:
    Kemper --> EQ --> Amp --> Mic --> EQ --> Kemper


    I tend to do a lot of experimenting and will have combinations of pre/post or no EQ profiles. Then I tweak them later (after I make 10 or so). I do not have a great amp that I am trying to match. Just garbage amps I am manipulating to sound decent and tweak later in the Kemper.


    Since I do not own a decent 4x12 cab, I started using the POST EQ to try and get better tone from the cab. And then I am usually focused more on the mids/highs and do not recall the low reactions to the profile. But I tend to cut at least 3 dB at 80 Hz on the POST EQ almost always. I do this partially just for the IRs created as much as the profiles.


    LONG SHOT

    Another option might be to boost the bass when doing the REFINE process? Maybe the Kemper will de-emphasize the bass? I cant recall if I have ever done that or not.


    VERY LONG SHOT

    I recently started running Room EQ Wizard on my cabs to get good IRs of them. And the first thing I noticed is how badly the speakers interfere with each other. This makes me seriously doubt anyone could even get a decent tone with more than one speaker in the vicinity of a mic. If I do not block the sound from the unused speaker it will create phase cancellations all over the place.


    I mention this because maybe it has some effect on the profiling process? On the plots I have done, its usually suck outs higher up in frequency. So probably not. I would have to do math to calc the freqs affected by speaker edges being like 4-6" away from each other etc.

    Quote from fergal

    Hi

    I started putting a parametric eq in the x slot and on the first page of the eq there's bass and treble controls and I'm finding adjusting these is working a treat. I drop both levels quite a lot and then turn up the eq vol on the last page to make up a bit of level lost. At least for me its working well on the profiles I've tried and I'm finding I'm not tweaking profiles but just using the x slot eq to make it sound right. If anyone tries this let me know if it works for you👍

    I suspect there are ways to "correct" it, but the point here is, the profiles should be a snapshot and as accurate as possible.


    What Vinny is calling out is, there seems to be a problem in that process, so has anyone else seen it? Is it new or always been there?


    It would be good to get a view from Kemper on their thoughts..

    I don’t want to start second guessing how to get the bottom end ‘similar’ to the way the amp is already sounding. The amp already sounds great.
    I already have sounds out of the amp, cab and mic I am happy with.

    I know what I ‘can’ try with all sorts or post eq and pre eq. You are completely missing my point.

    When we mix an album, we cut low end on a song per song basis.

    This is not about that.
    It’s about the Kemper adding something that is not originally there on my own amps that I am profiling.

    Quote from Vinny Burns

    It’s about the Kemper adding something that is not originally there on my own amps that I am profiling.

    I agree 100%. Just trying to offer solutions until Kemper decides it is an issue and addresses it. :thumbup:


    I also like to try and offer solutions for people landing here from a Google search with similar concerns.

    Quote from RosboneMako

    I agree 100%. Just trying to offer solutions until Kemper decides it is an issue and addresses it. :thumbup:


    I also like to try and offer solutions for people landing here from a Google search with similar concerns.

    Yes, I understand that.

    I have played guitar on well over 30 big label released albums since 1988.

    Worked with Mike Shipley, Larry Klein, Mike Stone, Keith Olsen. I know the workarounds. It’s not my first rodeo recording or EQ’ing an amp or getting a guitar sound in the studio or live. .

    I don’t really want a workaround in this instance . I am just trying to make Kemper aware of it.

    Hi there, I have been profiling my 2 Engl Powerballs as well as my Engl Ironball Combo lots of times in the past months since I got my Kemper. I bought the Kemper DI Box to make direct amp profiles because I want my Kemper to use live with my 4x12 cab. Every single profile since had that boomy bottom frequencies and me and a friend of mine spent ours on tweaking and profiling. To us the Kemper never sounded identical to the original amp in the low end. Though we always made DI profiles.
    And I have to say I’m done with it. For live and rehearsal I’m going back to the Engl because I like the sound much more and I have a lot of fun with it. But I will keep the Kemper for playing at home because I like the sound over Headphones.


    Why am I writing this? I wanted you to know other people have the same issues.


    I also would appreciate a lot a statement from Kemper.


    greetings from Germany!