How to use doubletracking

  • I own the Kemper Stage for two weeks now and am of course struck by the possibilities, but also very enthusiastic.


    I used to play over two amps with the TC Electronic Mimiq Doubler to create a guitar wall because I'm the only guitarist in the band.

    Now I've tried to recreate it with the Dual Chromatic Delay or the Dual Delay, but I have the impression that it sounds a bit phased.

    So I hung the Mimiq Doubler in the Effect Loop. Now, however, I have the problem that I always have a small sound dropout when I switch rigs in performance mode.

    For the sake of testing, I once copied a rig with the effect loop switched on and switched it back and forth. There is often a small dropout (of around 8 ms) in the delayed signal, accompanied by a crack. It doesn't matter whether I use the lower loop or the upper loop.

    I tested it also with other pedals (a delay and an EQ). I don't have a sound dropout here, but I can hear a distinct crack.

    It's wired correctly (SEND 2 to the pedal, from the pedal to RETURN 3 and 4) and I've tried other cables as well.


    I then hung the mimiq behind the main outs. That works of course, but I would prefer to go into the mixer with the XLR outputs when we play live. In this case, I would also have to get two DI boxes so that I can supply the mixer with a line signal.



    Does anyone have another tip? Thank you and best regards!!

  • I still haven't found a solution to my problem and have now contacted support. But he won't be back in the office until monday and will then try to see if he can reproduce the behavior.

    In the meantime, I'm trying to see if I can fix the problem myself by making changes to the setup.

    I noticed that some settings in the Output menu are grayed out and therefore hardly readable, for example the value for Output Send 1 on the first picture. If I set the effect loop to use the lower loop, then the value is displayed normally again (picture 2). Is that the same for you, or should I make use of my right of return?

  • Ok I understand. The settings for the Send 1 output only make sense if I want to process the signal further (i.e. reamping, profiling ...). As soon as I use Send 1 as an effect loop, only the direct signal is present (depending on where in the signal chain I use the loop, also FX or the stack section before the FX loop) and I can set what I want in Send 1 output (even if I set it to "off"), it has no effect on the output signal.

    Sometimes it is really helpful to read through the manual ... but when you have a new toy it is of course much more interesting to play around with and in this case to enjoy the sound.
    I didn't really get any further in my search for the dropouts. I'm almost afraid it's the Mimiq Doubler's fault.

    The spillover function in the rig menu only has only effect on the internal reverb or delay FX if these are in the REV / DLY modules, but not if I use an effects loop there. That apparently never gets cut off when changing rigs, no matter where in the signal chain, right?

    Then it can't be because of that either.

  • Hi there,


    I still have a big problem with my Kemper Profiler Stage.
    The latest firmware is on it (8.5.8.30570) and the rig manager is also in the latest version (3.2.48.17248).


    As I have already described above, I use the TC Electronic Mimiq Doubler to make my guitar sound like two guitars (wall of sound).
    When I switch between two rigs I still have a short sound dropout.
    At first I had the assumption that it would be due to my TC Electronic Mimiq Doubler, which I had inserted via the FX loop.
    So I contacted the Kemper Support and they told me that it could be due to an impedance conversion.
    I then removed the Mimiq Doubler from the signal path and built myself a similar effect with the Kemper Dual Delay.
    Nevertheless, I also have a clear sound dropout here and I am a bit surprised that this topic has never appeared in the forum.


    To make it clearer, I've recorded a few sound samples. To ensure that it wasn't due to any amps or effects, I took the default crunch rig and only inserted the dual delay. You can find the krig file attached so that you can recreate it on your Kemper. I then simply copied this rig in a performance and switched it back and forth. If you don't get the error, I should be concerned and I will send my Kemper back if necessary. I would be very happy to receive your feedback (sound samples)!


    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sd1…jDZ8zL-QQ8yEHCAznBfa?dl=0


    I played a chord and switched back and forth between the rigs in the middle.
    Track 1 is the rig with no effects. You don't hear a big difference.
    Track 2 is the dual delay with a delay time of 21 ms. A slight crack can be heard here.
    Track 3 is the dual delay with 410 ms delay time. Here the sound dropout is unmistakable.
    Track 4 is the dual delay again with 21 ms delay time and 10 ms rig x-fade time. A little more pleasant, but the sound becomes quieter in between. Not ideal either.
    Track 5 and 6 is then the Mimiq Doubler.


    Is anyone using the Mimiq Doubler here? If so, how? Maybe not in the FX loop but at the output? But then it also changes all other effects (e.g. an upstream delay ?!).

  • michi333

    Changed the title of the thread from “Dropouts and glitches when using Effect Loop” to “Dropouts and glitches when using Double Track Delay”.
  • After trying a lot of things out last night, I realized that luckily it wasn't my Kemper Stage´s fault.

    If I had read the manual properly, it would have been clear: I had used the "Double Track" delay in the MOD-module. So of course the decay of the delay is cut off when changing the rig. Who can read has a clear advantage!

    If I insert the Mimiq doubler as an FX-Loop module in the DLY or REV-module, it will still be cut off when changing the rig, which is probably in fact due to the impedance-thing. If I would connect the Mimiq doubler behind the main output, I have a fat guitar-wall in a "normal" rig, but as soon I switch to a rig with delay, this is so falsified by the Mimiq doubler that it is actually only sounds like mono.


    So my thinking shouldn't be how I use the Mimiq Doubler in the Kemper.

    I think I should remove the Mimiq Doubler from the setup and do everything within the Kemper.


    So my question: does someone play double tracked guitars here and how do you implement that sensibly?


    Here are a few more reasons why I want to play double tracked at all. But maybe I should reconsider it though:


    -I'm the only guitarist in the band. Especially when rehearsing with headphones, it is pleasant when it sounds like the guitar is panned to both sides. This also gives some space in the middle for vocals and bass.


    -Does it even make sense to play live over a PA-System with a double tracker, or is that more of a problem? With a mono mix, there are phase shifts, can that be uncomfortable for the audience? (For studio recordings I would of course do without double tracking and instead always play several guitar tracks).


    - Assuming I would program my rigs in such a way that I only use a double track delay with "normal" rigs and as soon as I switch to a rig that contains a delay or reverb the double tracking delay is programmed off, then my dry signal suddenly would come out of the middle and only the delay / reverb sounds in stereo. That sounds kind of strange. How would you solve this problem?


    I used to solve it on my pedalboard by using the Mimiq Doubler before the delay and reverb. That then falsified the sound character of the delay / reverb a little, but it also made the sound three-dimensional somehow and at least there were no sound interruptions when switching (the Mimiq Doubler was always "on"). A solution would of course also be, if the X-module or MOD-module were programmed in such a way that they would not be cut off when changing the rig. Then I would have a similar solution as on my old pedalboard. But I dare to doubt whether it is so easy to program.

    For the occasion, I simply renamed the thread, as this is no longer a Kemper error. I hope that despite my many confused words, it is still clear what my concern is. Thanks very much!

  • michi333

    Changed the title of the thread from “Dropouts and glitches when using Double Track Delay” to “How to use doubletracking”.
  • IMHO
    If you wanne do it right with the TC Electronic Mimiq Doubler you definitly need two (2) Amps.
    Because you wanna simmulatew two Guitars with different setup.
    So you need:
    - two Kemper

    or
    - a Kemper + a real amp

    or

    - a Kemper + any other modelling amp

    or

    - a modelling amp with 2 way amp processing

  • Yes, in principle I agree with you, I actually played over two different amps for years. I just wanted to simplify my setup and that's why I decided on the Kemper. Modelers didn't convince me that much, but I liked Kemper straight away. I'll just have to get used to a little.

  • In my studio, I use the Mimiq connected to my main outs and into Left/Right interface inputs. For dual amps, you can run Direct Out to Right of Mimiq and into Right of interface inputs then load up amp plugin in Daw for that channel.


    I've also used Dual Chromatic doubler with the Mimiq at the same time with some interesting results.


    My best results with the Mimiq is to place a Flanger in the Mod slot and set it to a very low mix ratio. This helps keeps the separation of the stereo field so the L and R guitar signal does not float back and forth to the center channel.

    The more you find what Kemper can do then the harder you try to find what it cannot do -- like make a good cup of Frappuccino.

  • Thanks for the tips. The problem is not that I don't have a good sound with the Mimiq Doubler. I would always prefer to play another guitar in the studio, it's only about live or in the rehearsal room, as I'm the only guitarist in the band.

    I use the Mimiq in the stereo FX loop. This is placed in front of the delay and reverb modules. The sound is great, the only problem I have when switching between rigs is that a short crackle occurs.
    If you look at the recorded waveform in the DAW you can see that the delayed signal causes a sound dropout for a few milliseconds. I am a little surprised that no one else knows the problem.

    I ran through several scenarios to rule out errors:
    -installed the latest firmware on both devices
    -exchanged cables
    -copied the default crunch rig with the Mimiq in the FX loop and switched back and forth
    -placed the FX loop in the delay module (keyword spillover - but has no effect here)
    -tried lower and upper FX loop
    -hung the Mimiq on the main-outs of the Kemper. The Mimiq places the original signal on the right side and
    the doubled signal to the left. If you go stereo in the Mimiq, it simply puts the stereo sum on the right side (is thus summarized) and duplicated it on the left side. The whole thing then sounds somehow like stereo, a ping-pong delay, for example, which previously alternately moves from left to right, only sounds "mono".
    - I wrote to temper support, it could have something to do with an improper impedance of the Mimiq doubler. Can not do anything.


    I was finally able to reduce the sound dropout (or crackling) to a tolerable level by turning up the Rig X-Fade value from 3 ms to 8 ms in the System menu. If I go to 10 ms, the sound becomes noticeably quieter when changing the rig, so 8 ms seems to be a good value.