How do you pan live when you go FOH?

Quote from lightbox

You have a keyboarder who plays the Korg Kronos and he wants to play the Kronos German Grand which has the keys mapped from low (left) to high (right). If you e.g. just send the left channel as a "mono" feed, FOH will not hear the upper keys.

Most decent keyboards switch to mixed-to-mono mode when only one cable is plugged in- in that case both channels of a stereo patch will be mixed to mono and output together, so nothing goes missing. It would be a huge surprise for me if the Korg Kronos didn't have that feature - I'd consider that a must-have feature on any professional-level keyboard...

Also, a keyboarder performing live on a regular basis should be prepared to provide a mono signal if needed (if your keyboard doesn't have that feature, there's simple DI-type boxes that can to that) - that's just plain professionalism... Unless, of course, if you're so exalted that you can dictate the terms and just _demand_ that you can feed in stereo...

I’ve recently started using stereo patches and running stereo to foh but it’s only really for my personal benefit. Just sounds so much better in my headphones and my enjoyment is better.

For the shows I do which is theatre - audience are all seated - the foh auditorium mix is usually completely mono. Sometimes the vocals will be sent to a centre cluster but the band is almost always mono. The only real exception is for rare special effect if there’s surround sound as well and some ping-ponging of a specific sound (in which case it would be bouncing around the room, not just left/right). The reason is pretty obvious - if they start hard panning instruments to one side (or substantial panning), entire sections of the audience won’t hear those instruments properly - if at all.

if the audio design/mix is good, then you can generally hear everything that’s going on, even in mono.

Again, just one example:

Greg Price mixing Black Sabbath in stereo

See how all the regular toms and the concert toms are panned?

See how even Tony Iommi's guitar feeds are panned?

Seriously, these guys know what they are doing, I could go on and on but hopefully you guys understand why I wrote that "stereo" is being used a lot. Of course they won't just send a fully panned stereo to the entire PA system. e.g. outfills will typically get a mono mixdown of the stereo bus. But this happens after the mix that is done in stereo.

And last but not least, I'm not talking about small club gigs. I was just trying to explain and prove that it's done differently in most "bigger venues" or for "bigger acts".

And finally the inevitable Metallica and the great Big Mick Hughes ... actually interviewed by Thomas Wendt who also made plenty of videos for Kemper GmbH

Quote from lightbox

You probably know the wrong ones. All I'm saying is that it's a myth that mono is the common thing even in bigger venues ... believe it or not. Otherwise go and ask Greg Price, Dave Rat, Marc Carolan, Antony King, Big Mick Hughes, Colin Norfield ... and loads more.

You are right, I know the wrong ones. I don't know any of those people. This could be different from one country to another as well. I am speaking for the states in the US that I have lived in and performed in.

Another thing that running stereo does is take up twice as many channels on the mixer. Depending on the size of the band and the mixer you could run out of channels. The FOH engineer can also add stereo effects if they have them or are running a digital board that has them built in. If you send stereo feeds to the FOH with your mix of effects you are also taking a lot of the control out of the FOH engineer's hands. Just because your stereo effects settings sound good when you hear them doesn't mean they are meshing well in the mix out front. I can't tell you how many times I have had to have conversations with other guitar players the I was running sound for about how they have things adjusted and how they don't sound good in the mix. The biggest issue I typically face with this is guitar players dialing up their tones at home and scooping out the mids. They then get lost in the mix and can't be heard. This can happen with effects as well although I haven't run into that as often.

Quote from Finally

I think there's always confusion surrounding the idea of stereo in a live setting.

If the mixer is stereo and you have mono parts panned across the stereo field that's a stereo mix to me. If you send a stereo Kemper feed to that PA and pan L/R you'll get the stereo effects from the Kemper, they will probably pan you a bit or lower the volume on one side as needed.

A purely mono mix is the same thing coming out of both speakers and no panning. That sounds like a mess to me, with everything overlapped.

This is an interesting way of looking at it. I had not really thought of it that way. I have always thought about it as running a stereo signal to the FOH mixer. I always pan the guitars when there are more than one on stage to even the sound out in the room.

Quote from JEverly

I don't know any of those people

Look 'em up, it's worth it ... or at least see, read (and watch) my prior post for a start.

If you're into FOH mixing and haven't heard of any of these engineers, it's like someone saying he's an electric guitarist and never heard of Jimi Hendrix, Clapton or Page.

Quote from JEverly

Another thing that running stereo does is take up twice as many channels on the mixer.

Not true, it might take up a very few more here and there but not even close to double. If you mic a drumkit properly, you'll have mics on each tom anyway. It's totally up to the FOH engineer if he pans them slightly or not, no difference in input signal count. Same might go for guitars, either double-miced cab or dual amps/cabs or whatever. They'll have various sources anyway and can or cannot pan stuff. No difference in channel count.

Quote from JEverly

If you send stereo feeds to the FOH with your mix of effects you are also taking a lot of the control out of the FOH engineer's hands.

Then offer the FOH engineer yet another (3rd) channel with Git Stack and DLY/REV Wet as a stereo signal. There's many ways to work stuff ... and most of the time communication is key. I just don't like the notion that strictly mono is the way to go. It's just not true.

Quote from lightbox

Look 'em up, it's worth it ... or at least see, read (and watch) my prior post for a start.

If you're into FOH mixing and haven't heard of any of these engineers, it's like someone saying he's an electric guitarist and never heard of Jimi Hendrix, Clapton or Page.

Not true, it might take up a very few more here and there but not even close to double. If you mic a drumkit properly, you'll have mics on each tom anyway. It's totally up to the FOH engineer if he pans them slightly or not, no difference in input signal count. Same might go for guitars, either double-miced cab or dual amps/cabs or whatever. They'll have various sources anyway and can or cannot pan stuff. No difference in channel count.

Then offer the FOH engineer yet another (3rd) channel with Git Stack and DLY/REV Wet as a stereo signal. There's many ways to work stuff ... and most of the time communication is key. I just don't like the notion that strictly mono is the way to go. It's just not true.

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Saying that not knowing the people you mentioned somehow means that I don't know how to mix is ridiculous and I take issue with that comment. I don't need to know who they are to have done the study work and learning that I have done to know how to do this well. I have run sound for touring bands and have had many compliments and none of them ran stereo feeds. Keyboard players are the only ones that have ever asked to send me a stereo feed.

You are basically making my point in the second paragraph. Most instruments are not capable of sending a stereo signal when using the typical equipment, like regular amps that are miced up. With a Kemper you are able to send a stereo signal. Where I live most guitar players are still using tube amps. My point is that if everyone on the stage wanted to start sending stereo signals it would double the channel usage.

Most guitarists I know are not running a wet / dry rig so sending the separate feeds isn't something that is commonly done in my area.

It looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree on this subject. I don't see this going anywhere positive if we continue to "communicate" about this so I will stop replying now.

The only time I would use a mono signal is in a stereo mix, otherwise you are not being heard on Sirius XM radio, and thus, will never be famous. AM Radio is for talk shows.

Some of us are at the mercy of the sound engineer. Kemper has brought studio quality to the stage.

Be patient and they will catch up, I've started to see it.

Guys, put the knives away and come down - can we agree that acts where money and technology is not an issue may well run a stereo mix - actually, they may really run complex multi-channel and matrix mixes...

To mix sound for a large arena is an art AND a science - and these guys have people at the faders who really do know what they are doing, can deal with all the potential pitfalls and issues of these large locations, know the set list backwards and treat the show with the same level of sophistication as an album production. And these guys definitely wouldn't pan a stereo signal from a keyboard or a stereo guitar effect hard left and right - they are aware that very few people actually sit / stand at the sweet spot, so they know how to compromise.

Still I would guess that very few of us here play in these kinds of setups, but rather most of us have to deal with acoustically compromised locations with marginally motivated house techs a lot of the time. Mono is definitely the safer option there

Yes, I've been on a some (sufficiently wide) stages where the house tech ran a bit of stereo to spread out the musicians across the stereo image to reflect the setting on stage (if the guitarist is on the far right of the stage, it will make sense to also have him somewhat to the right in the mix). But even on those occasions, the stereo width was at a maximum of 40% or so - makes no sense that only half the audience can hear the guitar solo. And on these occasions, the individual sources (keys, guitars) were mostly treated as point locations, so the feeds were all mono.

Of course, if you are a prog rock band where huge "walls of sound" fired off by keyboards and guitars are an essential part of the aesthetic, running some sources in stereo may be necessary even for smaller acts and locations - but that's a special case. And it will require a lot of attention at the mixing desk so things don't go horribly wrong...

I've rarely been in situations where we aren't actually mixing our own show, so for us it's usually bass/ drums/ lead vocal in the middle and guitars/keys slightly panned to their side of the stage. BVs also panned slightly off the lead vocal. Then we pretty much leave it there and adjust our own playing and effects to provide dynamics. It helps that my brother was a broadcast engineer at radio stations for his whole career (and can play the heck out of an acoustic guitar). ?

Mono for live… definitely

Stereo is “pretty” but not worth the drama: phasing etc etc

whatever your personal views on how things 'should' be mixed are,

the best thing you can do for your band, your audience and consistency is to have a flawless tech rider as a .pdf that you send to the venue, AND have available as a download.

As above...

This has only become a discussion because you are able to easily send a stereo mix FOH. This can't be done with other instruments unless you double mike everything.

Actually the guitar output for 99.9% of guitars is mono, its the stereo effects you add afterwards.

So, do engineers pan different parts of the drum kit? Of course. does that make it a stereo mix? Suppose so. Therefore as soon as an engineer touches the pan control, its a stereo mix but I don't think that was the nature of the original question.

So to get back to original question, should you run stereo with your guitar effects...it depends on what you want.

My personal view is....wider means less defined. So in a single guitar band that features effects and to fill the room, stereo would seem a great option. Twin guitar band for straight ahead rock, mono for cut/definition etc.

This is of course a generalization.

I configure all my sounds/fx in mono and feed this to the desk. This is then panned in the stereo field towards me.

I 'discussed' this with our keyboard player but eventually got him to concede and do the same...

Would I like to run stereo FX? Yes, but it isn't practical for our band and the type of gigs we do.