Help regarding high gain tones

  • Hey there fellow Kemperers.

    Recently i found out that no matter i do, i do not like anything that i am hearing from the Kemper. Basically, al the tones that once made me happy, all of a sudden are not working for me anymore. Also, i found out that even at an hour distance from finishing up the tweaking for a profile, i begin to have doubts about the tone,

    Sometimes it is too bright, sometines too scooped, sometimes too much gain etc.. I was looking at some youtube videos at other people that play the same profiles i use, and the tones that they are getting are superior than the ones i am getting. I know the things about different guitars, different monitors, different picking etc but i got to a point where i no longer play, but trying to find a tone.
    I intend to make the tones for recording and maybe here is my dillema,

    How it's supposed to sound the ''raw tone'' in order for the final mix to be at the spot?

    I am trying to polish the tone in order to have eq done in the mix afterwards, but can't get no satisfaction.

    I tried to check in a mix, but the mix for the drums for example are not finished, because the album is still in recording stage.


    Maybe it's just my ears?


    Thank you in advance!

  • For example, i have the Tue Madsen Pack. I can't get it to sound like the demos no matter what i do. For me they sound very bright and very gainy, However, if i lower the treble, presence and gain, they begin to sound lifeless, fizzy, i don't know. Couldn't get nowhere close with this clip:

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    Also i got the Mark Lewis Kemper pack from STL Tones. Couldn't get them right.


    I got a bunch from SinMix, the Mesa Dual Rec, in my setup they sound very midrangey with no definition, although the demos sound good and other people love them and praise them.


    Maybe it is the way i set them up?

    I would like to hear somewhere the raw tone of a recording in order to see what i am aiming too.

    I have spend 200-300 euros on commercial profiles.

  • It probably has more to do with the other instruments in your mix than the profiles themselves. Check and make sure your guitars aren't fighting with bass and cymbals in the spectrum. Ear fatigue is also a very real thing, and it will always feel like you could just tweak one more thing and it would sound better.

  • ...

    I intend to make the tones for recording and maybe here is my dillema,

    ...

    This is exactly what you are supposed to do. Are you tweaking profiles along with a drum and bass track? If not, then that's where your mistake lies unless you intend to write music as a one-man-one-instrument band.


    I use two versions of the same profile. Version 1 is for practicing alone in which bass is boosted and sometimes highs are cut so the guitar tone covers most of the 20-20k frequency range to get a full sound. Version 2 is strictly to fit in the mix so sometimes bass is cut, mids are either cut or boosted depending on how forward or backward I want the guitar to fit in the mix, and highs are used for darkening or brightening.


    You also have to get used to "refreshed ears" syndrome when your tone sounds different every morning from the previous day after waking up. Consistently playing the same tones week after week will alleviate this some.


    Just my opinion.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • Thank you for the replies.


    The thing is that right now i am preparing for recording, the drums are not mixed in order to see if my tone goes well with the drums. I mean that, the sound on the drums is very raw and it may can fool me (i don't have any ideea).

    I've read an article with Colin Richardson that said something like whenever he is dialing a guitar tone, he tries to get the tone as close as posible to the final product, quote:

    "We messed about for a day finding the right mic positions and I was determined not to use any EQ - we use the tone controls on the amp.

    "I will EQ heavily in the mix if I think it needs it, but I'd like to think I've got it as true as possible. But if you're EQ'ing heavily when you record, and again when you mix, you're getting into some weird phase stuff that even I don't understand."


    Also, i tried to eq the profiles at a fairly loud volume , 70-80 db considering the fletcher- munson curve, again a article i read somewhere about the loudness in recording studios for mixing/mastering. So i presume that also the instruments are recorded or at least eq'd at the same levels.

    You also have to get used to "refreshed ears" syndrome when your tone sounds different every morning from the previous day after waking up.

    That is exactly the point. I tweak something and maybe in the next few hours i decide to change the whole settings, or after a few days.


    Damn confusing!

  • One of the reasons I like to use studio headphones to mix is because I can do it at loud volumes and not have to be concerned about bass trapping and reverb when using my monitors. But monitors are fun as long as no one else is home to disturb. The only draw back with headphones is you get a narrower stereo field which is why I will check it against my monitors. So, creating profiles at loud volumes is where it's at!

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • Don't shift the mixing process to the Profiler! Most likely the profiles you bought sound great right out of the box if you keep your settings untouched. Settings means: Output EQs, HPF, LPF, Clean Sens, Distortion Sens ... keep all this stuff at default. Don't try to tweak the rigs in a way you think they should work in the mix. The person who made the profiles has already taken care of that. That's why they often call their profiles "mix-ready".

    If you tweak anything, stick with what you might do with an amp, slight changes in Gain, EQ of the stack section. It should sound good for you, NOT for the mix of a recording. Let the mix engineer take care of the HPF, LPF and the EQing to sit the stuff in the final mix.


    1. I have the impression that too many folks try to get stuff done IN the Profiler that's not the job of the Profiler.

    2. Especially for high gain metal, don't underestimate the importance of double-tracking, most often also the combination/arrangement of e.g. regular guitar(s), baritone guitar, bass. Most of the time the combination of these parts make the overall sound fat and heavy and more multi-dimensional. Again, don't overthink your tweaking.


    Hope this helps :)

  • One of the reasons I like to use studio headphones to mix is because I can do it at loud volumes and not have to be concerned about bass trapping and reverb when using my monitors. But monitors are fun as long as no one else is home to disturb. The only draw back with headphones is you get a narrower stereo field which is why I will check it against my monitors. So, creating profiles at loud volumes is where it's at!

    I never tweaked profiles on studio headphones, just on monitors. I will consider buying a pair of headphones.



    Thank you for the input. I tried last night tweaking more extreme so to say the amp eq rather than adding post eq's. Last night i got very good results, but then again, i hope to be as good today. You are right with the impression that i was trying to get the stuff done in the profiler, but i thought that recording the best source will make the engineer's job easier mixing the guitars and i would get aproximately the tone that i was hearing and the one that i was pleased by. Think of it just like the FOH situation. I always tweak my profiles so that the FOH guy leaves the eq on the mainboard at a neutral position, that way if i have a engineer that isn't familiar with our sound,he is starting at a neutral position and after that makes the eq correction.


    The main thing is that like i said in another post on the forum, i am not familiar with real tube amps and cabinets, especially studio micing a guitar cab and hearing the raw sound of an amp. So this is why i am trying to get the most of the tone from the Kemper, tweaking the shit out of the profiles.


    I saw like studio reports of high gain guitar recordings and their sound was huge out of the box, just before they began the mixing process. That is where i got the ideea to tweak it like that.

  • The best thing you can ever do is have some form of reference point. Find a song that has a great opening guitar sound and have it ready to be played at all times. Maybe force it to be mono (left only?) if they double tracked it and panned it. Stereo always sounds huge and good.


    Do some tweaking then listen to the gold standard sound to refresh your ears.


    It is also good to go back and forth on the Kemper with some good sounds.


    My ears are horrible. So I join you in the struggle.

  • I always tweak my profiles so that the FOH guy leaves the eq on the mainboard at a neutral position

    I understand what you're trying to achieve. :) My point is that your performance will benefit if you've setup the sound to YOUR liking, not to some "purpose" at the end of the process.

    If you like the taste of a good apple, please do yourself the favour and eat a good, fresh apple .... and not some "pre-digested substance" because it makes life easier for your stomach and intestines. :D It's terribly gross but I couldn't come up with an example that's more "colorful" than that, hahaha.

  • My experience with the free and factory high gain profiles is they are either dark and muddy or bright and fizzy. I found the best way to tweak them to be mix ready is to use the Gain and Definition knobs but you have to adjust them in small increments and sometimes together because it can change the tone drastically.


    Don't underestimate the power of doubling your tracks when recording to get a fat sound. It even makes fizzy tones sound much better.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • After 2 days of playing and listening, taking the advices from all of you, i came to the conclusion that less is better, as in less tweaking and keeping it simple is better. I have managed to find a good tone in my opinion and somehow came to realize that indeed the mixing/mastering enginner should be let to do his work. At one point i was even taking the consideration to change my monitors LOL. I have calmed down and i am trying to get the time into composing, recording and enjoying.


    Thank you once again for all the excelent advices!


    It is really satisfying that if anyone has a problem and discuses on the forum, it can get all the help he needs. It is really helpful to get advices from someone who had been there/done that.

  • Turning the definition parameter down, for me, it gives the feeling of looseness of the distortion. It doesn't have the attack and the tightness. My problem was the frequency spectrum, some of them we're too bright, some of them we're boomy. I have returned to the Josh Middleton pack 3, hoping to find the pleasure i once had on this profiles. I found it at some degree, just a matter of a little bit of tweaking.

    For example, in the moment i got them when it was released, i thought it was the best high gain pack that i have tried. After that i found Mark Lewis pack and i thought that this was it! The ultimate high gain tones! A/B'ing them made Josh's pack weak, now returning back it makes the Mark Lewis too compressed, too boomy etc. This is my damn curse! But nevertheless, i am finding the pleasure playing in both packs

  • Turning the definition parameter down, for me, it gives the feeling of looseness of the distortion.

    Yes for 99.5% of high gain profiles you want the definition set to 10. This removes bass from being sent into the AMP section. Having the bass freqs being amplified/distorted creates that loose flubby sound. So you focus the distortion in the higher frequency. You can also add an EQ before the amp and adjust the distortion color/voice even more. For example you may want a boost around 400-800 Hz for some thickness and turn the HIGH up for more bite.


    If the Distortion has too much grit/hair (generically sounds too distorted) you will want to adjust the CLARITY setting. More CLARITY expands the waveform a little so you quiet the mid volume distortion. So you get less Buzz Saw and more articulated notes. If you add a lot of CLARITY you will want to add a little more GAIN to make up for the cuts you just made.


    If you are going for full-on death metal you will want to add a little of the clean sound with the AMP MIX. It clears up the sound and adds mid freq thickness that you need when detuned heavily. Sometimes reducing the AMP GAIN and adding a boost/dist lets you color up the clean signal a little so you are not mixing a pure clean and AMP signal. But for super high gain stuff the pure clean signal actually works really well.


    And adding a LOT of the clean signal in MIX actually will move a high gain amp into super cool sounding crunch or blues tone.


    Having an EQ before the amp also lets you adjust the clean pure signal as well.


    For strong metal I may also alter the CABINET Hi/Low settings. Usually turning the LOW down a little and the HI up to around +.3. The LOW setting is not super touchy. The high setting is more touchy as it covers a lot more frequency range so small changes are needed. I tweak the HI until it moves the speaker resonance into a frequency I want to get more bite/clarity. Reducing the CHARACTER setting may reduce the speaker resonant frequencies and add more high end also. Always worth a quick check.


    For more of a stack on 11 sound I add a TREBLE BOOSTER after the AMP. Not so great for super high gain but for all other amps styles it can really help. I set the MIX to 50% and adjust the tone to help push the frequency you want. Then I adjust the MIX up from 0 until you get a nice even frequency response.

  • I bought that Tue Madsen pack as well. I found that if you go into the amplifier settings the definition is turned all the way up on every single profile. The profiles were unusable to me until I discovered this and lowered the definition, those profiles are fantastic and some of my favorite high gain profiles I have… YMMV.


    I like Tue's mixes and i think he has some of the best guitar tones. But for me something is too much in his tones, in his pack to be specific. Maybe it will work like a charm in a mix, yet alone for me doesn't work 100%. Not saying that he has bad profiles, maybe i am doing something wrong because seeing Fluff and other guys playing he's profiles, they sound massively good. I will try to tweak them more.

    Sometimes reducing the AMP GAIN and adding a boost/dist lets you color up the clean signal a little so you are not mixing a pure clean and AMP signal. But for super high gain stuff the pure clean signal actually works really well.

    Most of the profiles i have are already boosted with an OD in front, so i try not to overboost them, adding an OD on an OD-ed profile, maybe i will add a pure boost like as if it come from a hotter pickup ( or am i wrong?)


    It is funny/annoying how our ears and minds are functioning, today you are having the tone of your life, tomorrow you delete all your profiles and sell all the gear to get new/different ones.


    At one point i thought that i was having a problem with my sound card/monitors/kemper because it used to change the tones so drastically.


    If you are going for full-on death metal you will want to add a little of the clean sound with the AMP MIX. It clears up the sound and adds mid freq thickness that you need when detuned heavily.

    I tried that but for me it adds some honkyness and i added a little bit.