KPA test by FAS

  • I'm an early Axe-FX user, and was impressed early on the customer support and Cliff's responses to people's questions. But over time, things started to change with him and Atomic:

    • I asked the Atomic guy a long time ago to post the frequency response curves of their tube power amp/speaker unit. They are claiming FRFR, yet not posting any specs. This was rather suspect. I had a feeling based on the design that it was far from flat. Many users did comparisons also against other monitors (like the Verve), and it was clear that the Atomic stuff was not close to being FRFR. Atomic claimed I had an issue or beef with them, but I didn't. I thought it was a fair question to ask for those specs when all their competitors post such data. You can't claim FRFR unless you post *some* data.
    • I never understood why Cliff decided to partner with Atomic. Those amps, though they can sound good, are the antithesis of the whole Axe-FX philosophy: solid-state reliability, creating the entire sound within the unit (no coloration and and relying on a good FRFR system to display that), and made in the USA. NONE of these characteristics are evident in Atomic.
    • After Fractal started to get more popular and be the new "king of the hill," I perceived a shift in attitudes -- condescending towards any detractors, constantly defensive, etc. Cliff started to act like Steve Jobs.I remember once in his forum, when someone asked why the unit did something unusual (because the action itself was weird), his response was "don't do that." Similar to Steve Job's response about phone reception when holding the older iPhone a specific way. Simply arrogant.
    • Cliff mentioned early on about thinking about using an idea similar to what Kemper is doing (I call it empirical behavioral modeling), but he dismissed it as not good enough, and he went the route which he is doing now (I call it device modeling, based on schematics and component modeling). Now he introduces "tone matching" which confuses users that he can do something like profiling. If the Kemper method wasn't as good, why introduce tone matching now? Sounds like a very defensive, desperate move to me. The fact that there is no waiting list time now may reflect lost sales to Kemper and his resorting to competitor bashing.
    • His recent bashing as well as the Axe-Fx cultists out there against the KPA is ridiculous. One TGP moderator (who will go nameless but owns a Axe-FX) is *constantly* hyping the Axe-FX and any new monitor he happens to have. The guy went thru QSC, then Verve, now RCF. And his sheep followers continue to buy whatever he touts. Simply amazing. I've owned an RCF way before him, but didn't hype it like he does now. He'll also rag on anything that isn't what he's using. I happen to like the ELX112P. Great monitors for the price (half the RCF), and with much better serviceability.


    Moral of the story: carefully read the forums and get to know the content. Read previous postings of a user to see if there are any biases. You'll see plenty, so be careful. Often, they'll tout what they are using as "the best," then 6 months later, move onto to something else and say the very same thing. They are hype machines. There's a guitarist on TGP who's famous for this. He'll hype up his current guitars, get endorsements, etc. Then 6 months later, these will be on sale and he'll be on to the next thing. Be wary of these people.


    That said, I think both the Axe-FX and KPA are great. Each has its strengths. I am tending now towards the KPA because of the attitude issues of FAS as well as having too many options in the box to tweak. Personally, I'd rather have a few great tones and some good effects. So a few great profiles would cut it. I also like the simplicity and knobs to adjust things. This allows me to spend more of my time playing to get better and enjoy the music. :D

  • Well Said!

    Quote

    Moral of the story: carefully read the forums and get to know the content. Read previous postings of a user to see if there are any biases. You'll see plenty, so be careful. Often, they'll tout what they are using as "the best," then 6 months later, move onto to something else and say the very same thing. They are hype machines.

  • That Jobs response was a fake... blame him for whatever you want, but not for that answer...


    Yes, you may be right on that. Nonetheless, the arrogance displayed by Apple is very real, with condescension being a main attribute (i.e. I know what is good for you, I am the expert, you are all idiots). Unfortunately, that seems to be oozing from the FAS camp ... Don't get me wrong -- I love the products. Just lose the attitude please!

  • knowing how Cliff is and reacts and handles things, its no wonder that attitude trickles down with thickness to the FAS cult. honestly, I probably will never support that company again with a purchase, stuff like how cliff is acting irks me. I mean it just causes friction and that is what he wanted to do, trying to make his the superior product..

  • Yup rediclous statement. What cliff is trying to do is downplay and make the Kemper seem inferior and the axe superior. I just wish he would stop talking on that site. Its a shame when the guy behind the product makes me not want to buy an otherwise good product because of their antics

  • Come on chaps, let it go, it's time for fully grown male individuals to walk away from that nonsense.


    Cliff is just a character, yes he has a vested interest in downplaying the Kemper and trying to boost his own product, but to me it seems he's always been this way. Either sit back and enjoy the show or ignore it as background fluff, it's not really worth getting worked up about and I think it's beneath most members here to get involved. Amp sims aren't religion, I think the AxeFX is a brilliant piece of gear, I just prefer the Kemper for sound and simplicity. But there's no point being worked up about misinformation that Cliff posts, because that's his job. It's like Jay doing the same thing about IR's and speakers, he has a vested interest (and that's also why he'll never love the KPA, an IR is about as useful to a Kemper owner as a microwave dinner is to a Michelin star chef) so he also defends his own technology tooth and claw. These guys will argue opinion as fact because their welfare and income depend on that. All is fair in love and war, and make no mistake marketing is war. Unfortunately for them just as with guitar playing, it's not about volume but quality, there's a time to be proactive, and a time to stand back. A cult of personality approach that might work in politics quite often wont sit so well with products, Cliff hasn't learned that yet.


    If you carry on arguing, mudslinging with those sort of people all that happens is you get covered in crap. Think of how bad Cliff looks right now, that's all down to him and his lack of self control. If you respond in kind all that happens is you start looking just as crazy. So forget it, men know when to walk away and let the crazy dude take all the crazy credit.


    It's better to rise above it all and it makes a nicer and more useful forum if there's less platform zealotry and more maturity. So fellow male and female individuals, lets leave it be and get back to making music.

    Edited once, last by Per ().


  • Yes, you may be right on that. Nonetheless, the arrogance displayed by Apple is very real, with condescension being a main attribute (i.e. I know what is good for you, I am the expert, you are all idiots). Unfortunately, that seems to be oozing from the FAS camp ... Don't get me wrong -- I love the products. Just lose the attitude please!


    I don't see arrogance... I see philosophy!
    I don't love every product they do and if I don't like something I don't buy it, but I can see a clear philosophy in their choices... Even in those I don't like.
    We are very off topic so I stop it here, but I can give you a lot of examples if you want...
    Maybe they'll change and they'll satisfy more people, but for sure they'll lose customer like me that often buy things from apple without testing it and without thinking too much, sure that everything will work well and will be easy to use, and spending a little more money without complaining.
    I think every company should have a philosophy to follow (not the same philosophy of Apple, of course!) and the world would be a better place.


    I was hoping in Kemper to be the "Apple for guitarist", but for now I'm a bit disappointed. Not for the sound!!! That is amazing and there's nothing comparable out there!!! I receive compliments every gig ;-))
    I'm talking about things already asked and discussed in this forum (undo-redo, performance mode, etc) promised in the front panel of the KPA and that didn't received official answers about WHEN... That's definitely "not Apple" :)
    That reminds me of Terratec... Long time ago...

  • The one great thing I have recently seen is that David Torn is using the KPA, and he's pretty enthusiastic about it. His KPA clips are awesome. The TGP moderators (many who are FAS fanboys) don't dare try to question him on his opinions as he's a *true* professional musician with plenty of experience and awareness of great tone.


    I think I'll end the bashing on this thread as was mentioned earlier and focus on the product.


    BTW, with the new firmware and lots of profiles loaded, how long does it take to boot?

  • Very well stated. I guess what riles me up is that the Axe FX actually has a number or real benefits that the Kemper doesn't. Extensive effect selection including vocoder and synth. Since they're modeled instead of "profiled" the amps behave like the amps their modeled after when tweaking the controls. It's a USB audio interface. It's got a editor/librarian application. Etc. Why not lean on it's real strengths as selling points? Why spend the time making b.s. "tests" when your product actually has real strengths? You're right, it does seem like the rantings of a crazy person. Desperation is never pretty.

  • Very well stated. I guess what riles me up is that the Axe FX actually has a number or real benefits that the Kemper doesn't. Extensive effect selection including vocoder and synth. Since they're modeled instead of "profiled" the amps behave like the amps their modeled after when tweaking the controls. It's a USB audio interface. It's got a editor/librarian application. Etc. Why not lean on it's real strengths as selling points? Why spend the time making b.s. "tests" when your product actually has real strengths? You're right, it does seem like the rantings of a crazy person. Desperation is never pretty.


    I think if you look at the famed regular updates from Fractal on both the II and the original Standard\Ultra - the vast majority have always been about improving the core Amp\Cab tone along with bug fixing, and very little focus on improving effects. There have been improvements to the effects, but not ever the main focus in my opinion. Even when the II came out, when asked, Cliff was saying that if your main use if effects there probably isnt much point in upgrading. So assuming that, i think its probably just a pride thing... Cliff and the legions believe they have the best, Kemper has rocked that boat and they don't like it much.. Bells and whistles are all well and good, and i miss USB\Librarian stuff from the AXE (still have a II just haven't turned it on since gettking the Kemper a few weeks ago) but id prefer to drive a Farari with no radio\air con\sat nav than a totally specked out Yaris if your looking for a great driving experience! Don't get me wrong, Kemper has ways to go - Its been Beta far too long (and doens't advertise that its Beta very well.. doesn't say it at retail, which is a little cheeky in my point of view, granted i did know before buying but still...) the aliasing thing does annoy me on some profiles sometimes but generally don't notice it... If AXE Firmware 7 gets the raw feeling of playing guitar through the AXE better than what im getting from the Kemper, no skin off my nose ill move back to the Axe and move on the Kemper, if it doesn't, the AXE will probably be up for sale soon..

  • ... id prefer to drive a Farari with no radio\air con\sat nav than a totally specked out Yaris if your looking for a great driving experience!

    Yeah, I see your point, though I'd be hard pressed to think of something that's got all the features that the Kemper has as a stripped down Italian car. More like a full featured car that's missing things like hands free bluetooth phone control and a satellite nav system.