Trying to recreate the Fender "amp in the room" clean in my bedroom

  • I do wonder how many people take a Kemper, add a Kab, then mic the Kab? Seems like a perversion of the intent to me, but for some players, the amp-in-the-room feeling is a must. Me, I just want the band to sound great together (I also am the lead singer and the one who knows the PA ... and owns it).


    It has been my experience that guitar players are the MOST prone to wanting to hear "their tone" on stage and the most difficult to teach about what the audience hears.

  • Still, a Kemper with a Kab will not be making anyone smile at whisper levels. You need to move some air IMO.


    I am an electrical engineer ..... I don't believe in "magic" associated with tubes, transformers, or cab speakers :)


    As with all things, this is just an opinion.

    I am computer science engineer, I also don't believe in magic, I don't believe in anything except myself :) By "magic" I meant non-linearity of tubes. I had Kabinet, both with Class D poweramp and 50W tube poweramp (Fryette PS2) and it sounded not much different to DXR10. Maybe better utilization of imprints, but the imprints also worked on DXR10. But I couldn't get any Amp In The Room from Kabinet, even when feeding signal with tube poweramp. Maybe the Kabinet is just to shallow and light, I have no idea.


    As with all things, this is just an opinion.

  • I do wonder how many people take a Kemper, add a Kab, then mic the Kab? Seems like a perversion of the intent to me, but for some players, the amp-in-the-room feeling is a must. Me, I just want the band to sound great together (I also am the lead singer and the one who knows the PA ... and owns it).


    It has been my experience that guitar players are the MOST prone to wanting to hear "their tone" on stage and the most difficult to teach about what the audience hears.

    do you own(ed)/play(ed) Kabinet by the way?

  • We may not be able to agree on this, but I believe that for MOST people, the difference between the guitar going through a Kemper and a FRFR and guitar going through a tube amp rig is that tube amps are LOUD. Way louder (at the frequencies they emphasize) than a FRFR.

    Why would the tube amp be louder than the FRFR ? Both can output dangerous levels.

  • Why would the tube amp be louder than the FRFR ? Both can output dangerous levels.

    Loud where?


    My PA speaker tops (DSR112) can get very loud. Louder than almost any PA I have been around. It is louder than equivelent offerings from QSC, JBL, and really most powered speakers I have ever heard. No PA I have ever heard made my ears ring the way guitar amps have. Unless you are playing outside with a line array, pretty much any decent tube amp and a 4x12 cab has the ability to blow away the volume of the entire PA.

  • I don't agree somehow. I could put DXR10 on high volume, with sound filling rehearsal room around, it had 130dB SPL, but it had zero Amp In The Room.


    I remember once being in music store, someone had Epiphone LP plugged into some 50W Marshall tube head connected to 4x12 cab. It was not loud in terms of decibels, but there was this missing piece in the sound, Amp In The Room.

    The difference between one small 10 inch speaker versus four bigger 12 inch speakers .... thats almost 6 times more vibrating and air moving surface.

  • The difference between one small 10 inch speaker versus four bigger 12 inch speakers .... thats almost 6 times more vibrating and air moving surface.

    I bet if I had four DXR10 cabs it would still be flat, but louder than one DXR10.


    You can have 1 fender Deluxe Reverb with 12" Jensen speaker and have amp in the room. You can have 4x DXR12 and still sound flat, but "louder" than Deluxe Reverb.

  • I bet if I had four DXR10 cabs it would still be flat, but louder than one DXR10.


    You can have 1 fender Deluxe Reverb with 12" Jensen speaker and have amp in the room. You can have 4x DXR12 and still sound flat, but "louder" than Deluxe Reverb.

    Of course. Because they have completely different dispersion characteristics. And by that they interact differently with your room.


    The "beam" is different on both speakers. The felt lowmid bump is different because of that too.

    The highs from about 2khz on the DXR are played by the tweeter.

    The 12" Jensen plays all frequencies from his one cone.

  • Of course. Because they have completely different dispersion characteristics. And by that they interact differently with your room.


    The "beam" is different on both speakers. The felt lowmid bump is different because of that too.

    The highs from about 2khz on the DXR are played by the tweeter.

    The 12" Jensen plays all frequencies from his one cone.

    I don't think it's about dispersion, although I'm know it works differently in FRFR vs Guitar Cabs.

  • We all know its not just about volume but volume plays a part. In other words its very difficult to the the amp the room sound with a valve amp ( even a very small rated one) and a guitar cab at low volume.


    For me the Kabinet gets the best compromise, including size and weight.


    Played a gig Sat and the sound engineer asked me to turn down on my Kabinet (tendency is to just crank it up). Ended up with the best on stage sound I've had in ages. He was very positive about my sound which made my night.


    Ironically I don't like to dominate the sound too much. hearing my guitar out of context throws me off, I like a band mix when I wear IEM's similar to the FOH mix, but I see so many guitarists who want their sound to dominate, which is where the volume wars start!

  • I bet if I had four DXR10 cabs it would still be flat, but louder than one DXR10.


    You can have 1 fender Deluxe Reverb with 12" Jensen speaker and have amp in the room. You can have 4x DXR12 and still sound flat, but "louder" than Deluxe Reverb.

    Possibly so.


    What I can tell you is that playing my KPA through my full PA (2x DSR112's and 2x PRX618XLF subs) is a wonderful sound. Full, complex and beautiful; however, it does not sound like an amp in the room. IMO it sounds better ;).


    When I did gig with an amp in the room (VHT UL + 4x12 slant top miced with an SM57), The amp was never that loud on stage, and the FOH sound was not as good as it is now with a Kemper. Of course, even back then I was using IEM's live so the stage noise was of little thought for the musicians.

  • What I can tell you is that playing my KPA through my full PA (2x DSR112's and 2x PRX618XLF subs) is a wonderful sound. Full, complex and beautiful; however, it does not sound like an amp in the room. IMO it sounds better ;).


    When I did gig with an amp in the room (VHT UL + 4x12 slant top miced with an SM57), The amp was never that loud on stage, and the FOH sound was not as good as it is now with a Kemper. Of course, even back then I was using IEM's live so the stage noise was of little thought for the musicians.

    This!


    As musicians we have become used to the Amp in the room sound and therefore what we constantly look for. Of course this used to be the only way to get our sound "into" a PA.


    Kemper know this and hence its always been part of their "re-education" and philosophy about the differences with what sounds we have.


    I ran a guitar cab - it was a bit wholly. Then I went to FRFR. Pretty good but missing something. For me, the Kabinet does the right side of compromise and I love it.


    skoczy I know you know all of this as you have been part of the Kemper group for sometime but for me this was the revelation. That "magic" I was prepared to compromise because I'd take the best FOH sound over on stage sound. . As long as its sounds good enough not to put me off and inspire then for me its the way to go. With a regular amp, you have no choice but to get the best on stage sound and hope it translates well through a PAInterestingly, only Kemper tries to solve that problem with a dedicated cab.

  • This!


    :)


    I completely agree.


    The 4x12 on stage does look impressive though. Not impressive enough that I didn't sell mine rather than haul that crazy heavy thing around though!


    The other problem with a guitar cab being used for "FOH" sound is that they are so beamy. People on that side of the stage get their head exploded and on the other side you can barely hear the guitar.


    I think it is the rare guitarist that would think that the guitar sound going out of the FOH sounds "better" to him/her than the direct sound from the guitar cab in a good tube amp rig. I also think that (for the most part) it doesn't matter what tone the guitarist hears while performing, only how it sounds out front. With the exception of Jazz, no one on stage can possibly know what it sounds like out-front.


    Still, it is hard to retrain an entire generation of tube amp players with cabs to use IEM's and trust that their sound is being managed well by the FOH mixer ;).


    For those who live alone in a house with a basement they can crank their tube amp rig and play, I completely understand the desire for amp-in-the-room sound. Nothing like a dimed tube amp to make your hair stand on end and bring your strings alive!

  • I do wonder how many people take a Kemper, add a Kab, then mic the Kab? Seems like a perversion of the intent to me, but for some players, the amp-in-the-room feeling is a must. Me, I just want the band to sound great together (I also am the lead singer and the one who knows the PA ... and owns it).


    It has been my experience that guitar players are the MOST prone to wanting to hear "their tone" on stage and the most difficult to teach about what the audience hears.

    as a guitar player and singer, I couldn’t agree more

  • skoczy I know you know all of this as you have been part of the Kemper group for sometime but for me this was the revelation. That "magic" I was prepared to compromise because I'd take the best FOH sound over on stage sound. . As long as its sounds good enough not to put me off and inspire then for me its the way to go. With a regular amp, you have no choice but to get the best on stage sound and hope it translates well through a PAInterestingly, only Kemper tries to solve that problem with a dedicated cab.

    I can fully agree V8guitar - FRFR vs tube amps is like convenience vs "this_sound". I don't know if it matters, but I have never played on stage, so I didn't have a chance to compromise. But I think you'll agree, how the Amp In The Room can be inspiring. And when you do something and you get instant inspiration, you're in loop of doing it. When you try 100's of devices and FRFR solutions and all you get is flat sound, one can get in the end desperated.


    But I dealt with this in other way. Knowing that in my current situation is not gonna change now, I changed.


    I started playing E pentatonic scale over and over. Beating it to the death. After 6 months of daily practicing and improvising on SOLID STATE Yamaha THR desktop amp, I'm in guitar heaven. I can play with closed eyes and make funny faces, unexpected bends or not playing a note for 1 bar and be happy.


    Still I know Amp In The Room can be very inspiring, but lack of it shouldn't stop you from playing and improving.

  • I started playing E pentatonic scale over and over. Beating it to the death. After 6 months of daily practicing and improvising on SOLID STATE Yamaha THR desktop amp, I'm in guitar heaven. I can play with closed eyes and make funny faces, unexpected bends or not playing a note for 1 bar and be happy.


    Still I know Amp In The Room can be very inspiring, but lack of it shouldn't stop you from playing and improving.

    Hey nothing wrong with a Yamaha THR!!! :)


    I only really play live and its very true you need to feel it. I could put up with FRFR and preferred it over a guitar cab but I really love my Kabinet. It does sing. Is it the same as a valve through a 4x12? No, but its pretty close for me :)


    Its all good dude!!

  • What other scale is there? :)

    Hahahaha, it's E pentatonic major, which I barely (consciously) touched, because once you let yourself soak into improvising music, you don't think what is the scale :) you just enjoy being a part of you playing the guitar :)