How does Gain knob relate to gain level of rigs in a pack?

  • Hi, probably a noob question, but I’m a noob and searching for “gain” gives me so many results, so here goes …


    I haven’t done any profiling myself. I have various Tone Junkie profile packs. Each pack has different rigs for the same amp, with Gain ranging from low to high. Thus, when I switch between them the Gain knob’s position changes.


    Since different rigs in the same pack have different cabinet and mic combinations, I’m thinking that each rig reflects a separate profile of the amp.


    If so, then I’m thinking that each of those rigs (profiles?) was made with the physical amp set to different gain settings. If so, then I’m unclear of what the profiler’s Gain setting is indicating/controlling.


    Can anyone clarify this for me? Maybe I’m wrong about how the profiling works and each rig in a pack with different gain reflects gain set AFTER the profiling process (and therefore all rigs in the pack are based on a single profile)?


    Thanks!

  • Each rig is just a "copy" of the amp's settings at the time the profile was made. As soon as you move any parameter then you have essentially changed the rig to sound different from the actual amp at it's profiled settings. This is neither good or bad since you use your own ears to make the rig sound best for you.


    If I profile an amp with with it's EQ like this; Bass = 8, Mid = 4, Treble = 6, then the EQ settings for the on the Kemper will show as Bass, Mid, Treble = 5 (flat). Unless the profiler changed them to get a closer tone to the actual amp and save the EQ in the rig for you. The same would go for the Gain. A gain of 5 on the Kemper rig does not mean that the actual amp was only at halfway point on when it was profiled. I might have been maxed to 10. Just depends on how the profiler saves the rig.


    I've used Plexi type rigs that I know the amp was dimed out but the rig Gain and EQ settings are not dimed and allow you to make your own final adjustments. So, everything depends on how a profiler saves the rig to be distributed. I just search for a sound I like and worry about settings after.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • A gain of 5 on the Kemper rig does not mean that the actual amp was only at halfway point on when it was profiled. I might have been maxed to 10. Just depends on how the profiler saves the rig.


    I've used Plexi type rigs that I know the amp was dimed out but the rig Gain and EQ settings are not dimed and allow you to make your own final adjustments. So, everything depends on how a profiler saves the rig to be distributed.

    Thank you, I think this makes sense to me….


    Basically, the gain setting that we see in a third party profile is set by the person doing the profiling, rather than coming from a measurement done during the profiling process, right? If so, then it’s somewhat arbitrary and up to the author’s discretion?


    If so, then I think that also means that a profile pack that contains multiple rigs for the same amp may or may not contain rigs based on different profiles: the author could just copy their profile, change some settings (including gain) and give it a new rig name OR they could re-profile the amp, using different settings on the amp itself, and include that as a different rig… and we would not know the difference?


    (which is fine with me: like you said, just look for a good sound, at this point I’m mainly curious)


    Thanks!

  • Basically, the gain setting that we see in a third party profile is set by the person doing the profiling, rather than coming from a measurement done during the profiling process, right?

    If the Gain setting has not been edited by the person who made the Profile, it matches the Gain setting automatically set during the Profiling process. There is not a way of knowing the Gain, Amplifier, or Cabinet settings have been changed.


    But, if any EQ setting is "0", it does match the settings automatically set during the Profiling process. If it doesn't equal "0", changing it to "0" will match the original setting.

  • Quote

    If the Gain setting has not been edited by the person who made the Profile, it matches the Gain setting automatically set during the Profiling process.

    I was wondering how that is set automatically. I found this in the manual, saying that it comes from the reference profile used to make the new profile, but if no reference is being used does it get calculated somehow?


    Quote

    You will notice that the GAIN knob is automatically set to the same (audible) position as the reference amp and the amp volume is the same as the other amp volumes to make it easy to compare different amps. The actual gain range of the PROFILER is probably much larger than your original amp. This means that you can play the new PROFILE from ultra-clean to super-distorted, even if you couldn’t do so on the reference amp itsel

    Edited once, last by jackk100: Accidentally posted before done typing. ().

  • I only make small adjustments on gain knob. Also doing the same with amp eq.

    if I want more gain, I prefer the pure booster in front.

    If I want eq changes of the amp I use an eq in x.


    Drastic changes « destroy » the original profile.


    One thing I’ve learn after spending hours with the kemper (stage) is that if the profile does not sound really close to want you wanna hear, it’s better to just find another.


    Because it’s a profiler and not a modeler. Totally different toys.


    I also hated the kemper for months because you really have to realize that it’s not an amp but a very accurate reproduction of the tone you get of a miced amp.

  • If I want eq changes of the amp I use an eq in x.


    Drastic changes « destroy » the original profile.

    I don’t make wholesale changes with the amp EQ- but find minor adjustments to be beneficial. Personally, I dislike using an EQ. I’m forever chasing my tail - but that’s just me.


    I don’t normally raise the gain on a profile - but have with good results. Not always, as it depends on the amp. A Fender Showman sounds like crap with the gain control (something it never had) turned up. A Bogner Ecstasy? It won’t sound exactly like the amp at the higher gain level - but it often sounds good to me.


    I have gotten some killer cleans taking a profile from 6+ as far down as 2.5. I don’t feel it destroys anything.


    I remember seeing a video of Cory Wong using a Kemper and he said something to the effect of “I just grabbed (Profile name)…..turned the gain all the way down and it sounds great.”


    If the sonic purity of the original profile is what you’re after….then fewer changes make complete sense.


    I’ve become less and less precious about the ‘original’ sound over time. YMMV.

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • turning gain down has great results. I also use that.


    But the increase is not as good. That’s what make the famous quote « all high gain profiles sound the same ».


    At least to me.


    But a profile with great dynamics can be really great with less gain.

  • When the Kemper profiles an amplifier it sends a signal to the amp at the volume your guitar should make. It then looks to see how distorted/mangled that signal gets in the amplifier. It then calcs a number between 0 (clean/perfect) and 10 (Destroyed/Noise). That is the default gain you will see in the profile.


    For clean amps it will be like 0 - 3. Edge of breakup will be 2-5. Distorted will be 5 - 8.


    For example a pure SINE wave will only show one frequency if you did a frequency spectrum analysis. Once that SINE wave is distorted there will be a lot of other frequencies (harmonics) that get created. You can measure those other freqs and their amplitude and get a quick feel for how distorted it is.


    I usually get better results when I profile an amp with less distortion than I want and then add a little after by upping the Kemper gain control. It depends on the amp or course. Some high gain amps sound great for blues when you dial down the gain. Having a lot of options is the great part of the Kemper.

  • Personally, I dislike using an EQ. I’m forever chasing my tail - but that’s just me.

    I usually spend about 3 hours on a sound. Then come back the next day and redo it all because it sounds like garbage :)

    The best advice I have seen for editing a profile is to use a LOOPER. This lets you be sure you are not adjusting your playing to the EQ/Gain. And frees your hands to make better A/B comparisons.


    If I touch any knob, it sounds better to me. Because my ears are trash. ||

  • I usually spend about 3 hours on a sound. Then come back the next day and redo it all because it sounds like garbage :)

    This is one reason I shy away from the studio or graphic EQs. Just not my thing. With so many parameters, it’s a guessing game as to what worked.


    I’ve found that placing a Treble booster in X and varying the mix/tone controls can solve a LOT of problems without driving myself nuts. Tone is generally below 4.5, and in the 40-60% range as a start.


    The profile needs to be usable by itself, though. There are too many profiles around to band-aid shortcomings. The Treble Booster adds some flexibility without the paralysis a full EQ causes me.

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • I usually spend about 3 hours on a sound. Then come back the next day and redo it all because it sounds like garbage

    In context? Meaning, using and editing the sound in a mix? Fiddling with a guitar sound solo'd for hours isn't exactly purposeful.


    I always record with what sounds good to me without stressing too much about the nuances to capture a good performance, then in the DAW it gets EQed to make it fit.

    Always a highpass filter, often one or two dips in the mids or high mids to sort out the stronger resonances and maybe a low Q boost of an area to add character.


    Soloing such an EQed track is often surprising.

  • The PROFILER's gain control is tonally completely transparent, which allows the user to profile an amp at it's sweet spot and then use that tonal sweet spot across the whole gain spectrum.

    To be more exact, when I profile with a lot of gain, the sound gets dark and compressed. And on occasion the profile is weirdly distorted. Like the Kemper had an issue figuring out the sound thru all the distortion.


    By backing off the gain on the amp, the resulting profile is brighter and has more dynamic range. I hear it in professional profiles as well when they do multiple gain levels for the same amp.


    Probably does not work for every amp I am sure. Just one data point in a sea of anecdotes. But I like to let people know they have options to get where they want to be.

  • To be more exact, when I profile with a lot of gain, the sound gets dark and compressed. And on occasion the profile is weirdly distorted. Like the Kemper had an issue figuring out the sound thru all the distortion.

    This can happen when there is considerable distortion happening in the pre- and poweramp at the same time.

    'You might also run into trouble when PROFILING a sound in which both the pre- and power amps of the reference amplifier are driven into distortion. If the resulting PROFILE sounds unsatisfying, try to reduce the volume of the power amp. This will make the sound somewhat more transparent, without significantly reducing the amount of distortion.' - Main Manual

  • In context? Meaning, using and editing the sound in a mix? Fiddling with a guitar sound solo'd for hours isn't exactly purposeful.

    I just jam out on the Kemper and tweak dials. Just for my own enjoyment. But my ears are bad. They adjust to a sound and immediately EQ to it. So every tweak sounds better (even though it may not be). Then I tend to hear it the next day with fresh ears and it sounds nowhere near as good as I thought in the moment.


    But I love tweaking the sound. It is not a bad thing. The Kemper just has so many great things you can tweak. I tend to over do it, then remove some stuff the next day when my ears are fresh.


    I also record some straight guitar and then play it back on several things in the house to hear it on a variety of systems. This gives me a better picture of what to edit the next time.


    Side story: I have some old Altec Lansing computer speakers that sound great for any guitar sound I have ever played thru them. They are just tuned to perfect guitar freqs. I will be making some profiles with them soon to see if it translates to the Kemper :)