Gig sounded awful

  • Singers seem to complain about a bad mix more than others. This is often for good reason and I can relate since I sing as well. Nothing worse than having to sing without proper input to stay on pitch. Being forced to over sing is a horrible situation and can lead to physical issues. My first attempt to cure this situation is to 'force' the stage volume down. Most times, the other band members won't comply. Not much to do in that case.


    My standard answer for the prima donna singer that complains for no good reason is "I'll add volume if you add more talent"

  • Singers seem to complain about a bad mix more than others. This is often for good reason and I can relate since I sing as well. Nothing worse than having to sing without proper input to stay on pitch. Being forced to over sing is a horrible situation and can lead to physical issues. My first attempt to cure this situation is to 'force' the stage volume down. Most times, the other band members won't comply. Not much to do in that case.


    My standard answer for the prima donna singer that complains for no good reason is "I'll add volume if you add more talent"

    Singer here too and i agree entirely, stage volume is a killer. I also find that my voice confuses my perception of my volume. I will often consider that i can barely hear myself yet if i capture the audio either from the desk or via a decent in room mic setup, i realise that i'm really loud. But as soon as i sing, it seems to disappear.


    Weird but that's why I now use IEMs and have my own XR18 mixer in my rack behind my Kemper. My very own monitor mix, at every venue we play, without any drama from the sound guy!

  • I have gravitated to IEMs to solve the problem for myself as well. I have created a simple rig for that. My vocal mic goes into a small mixer that I control. A second channel is fed by a high quality condenser mic placed on the stage very near my location. The condenser picks up all of the stage volume and I mix my vocal in IEMs to float over top so that I can hear and avoid monitor issues. FOH is handled as normal. It works for me and puts me back in control of what I hear.

  • I think it might be something to do with the way our ears close off when forcing air out. I'm not sure about singers but brass players are terrible for this. Having played for 25+ years with a horn section where no one on stage could hear anything but horns and yet they couldn't hear themselves (but refused to wear IEM) I can sympathise with both side of the battlefield. I think the horn players genuinely couldn't hear themselves clearly because of the way blowing affected their hears (I wonder if singers are the same?). However, simply forcing the volume up just resulted in a battle that no one ever wins.


    I wish we had had full IEM mixes when I was gigging regularly. I might even be able to hear guitar now ^^

  • I think it might be something to do with the way our ears close off when forcing air out. I'm not sure about singers but brass players are terrible for this. Having played for 25+ years with a horn section where no one on stage could hear anything but horns and yet they couldn't hear themselves (but refused to wear IEM) I can sympathise with both side of the battlefield. I think the horn players genuinely couldn't hear themselves clearly because of the way blowing affected their hears (I wonder if singers are the same?). However, simply forcing the volume up just resulted in a battle that no one ever wins.


    I wish we had had full IEM mixes when I was gigging regularly. I might even be able to hear guitar now ^^

    if the stage is not too big, just play with the inears in, and only have your guitar in them. IEMs only attenuate by a max of 25 db. The spl will actually get down where the gig is not dangerous to your ears.


    On saturday i am doing a substitute gig. I know the drummer is insanely loud so this is what i do, when i sub with that band.


    Takes a bit of practise to get used to, but muc better than having the cymbals becoming a high frequency hurting mess in the last set, as they do for me when the drummer is loud v

    And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

  • Having just switched 100% to IEM for one of the bands I'm in, the benefits of IEM's are of course massive. Ear protection, being able to hear everyone, no volume battles etc.


    The issue with IEM's always remain:

    1) Set up - if you have your own PA, way easier, playing a venue with their own PA can cause various problems.

    2) Isolation - it does sound different hence some people rebel

    3) Cost - IEM systems are getting cheaper but decent buds are still very expensive. My personal IEM set up is about £1k and that's using a budget IEM system

  • if the stage is not too big, just play with the inears in, and only have your guitar in them. IEMs only attenuate by a max of 25 db. The spl will actually get down where the gig is not dangerous to your ears.


    On saturday i am doing a substitute gig. I know the drummer is insanely loud so this is what i do, when i sub with that band.


    Takes a bit of practise to get used to, but muc better than having the cymbals becoming a high frequency hurting mess in the last set, as they do for me when the drummer is loud v

    back in the early 90’s before IEM was commonplace I had a set of filters loaded in custom moulded ear defenders. I wore them are every gig for 25 years. I still have them and now use them as ear protection in the workshop when building guitars. Most of my hearing damage was probably done before that thought.

  • Wheresthedug I never could play guitar with just earprotection. Sadly. My intonation went south. So i was very happy when i finally got IEMs. But alas, like you, i damaged my hearing when i was young. Lot’s of earsplitting loud gigs. It is not as much hearing loss, i still have an above average hearing for my age (which is very surprising, considering). But the tinnitus is pretty bad.

    And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

  • Once you go IEM, you never go back! Same story here. Blasting those PA speakers right next to your head for long periods of time, not the best way to do it :) but after i changed for IEM, instantly was a relief on my hearing and also i started to sing better vocally (as i am also the vocalist)

  • I've at best been the sound guy when no one else turned up, I know what i'm doing but i'm not a pro, or anywhere near close.

    I've never done so and not experienced a primadonna musician that wants this and that, complaining that they can't hear themselves or someone else. If i get on stage to hear what they mean, I can always hear what they can't.

    At the same time, some guys will make the most basic request and maybe another later in the show, play their arses off with a smile on their face.

    I fully understand the desire to have a great mix but some act as if it's a make or break issue.

    Most of what I do anymore, at least the last four years, has been with bluegrass bands. These individuals have played for decades but for the most part they are so used to not having adequate equipment at the venues and outdoor events they play at that when I ask each person to do a quick sound check for their vocal and instrument mic the initial reaction by the look on their faces is that I come from another planet?(

    And having monitors on stage seems to be a rarity for them, so they take advantage of the situation and make a couple of requests, a little more guitar or dobro and one or two of the vocals and we are off to the races. It's been a very enjoyable experience for me and I've yet to do a show that I didn't receive a "Hey thanks, tonight was fun" from at least one of the band members.

    As far as having the privilege to engage with a bona fide prima donna, that's happened a few times but under the same type of circumstances. One, while doing a few shows in Branson Missouri, two, working with some P&W bands at charity events, three, AV installations I've done in churches. In each instance they share some common denominators, inexperience on stage and little to no knowledge of live sound in general, but in their minds they know everything. So when you can't get enough of their vocal in the FOH mix or monitors and they refuse to believe that holding the SM58 closer to their mouth instead of against their chest 12" away it would make a difference and refuse to try, that's the type of situation I was referring to.

    As for me being that same type of jerk it goes back to one instance in particular in 1988, but a short story that led up to the event gives some context. In 1987 at twenty years old the first band I had played in was at an all day battle of the bands in a local club that was a yearly event which had been around about a decade by that time. We were not by any means the best band there, we had only played live a few times before and all of the other bands had been around for years and were much better than us. But a couple of things helped us out, we played older songs and not hair metal which appealed to the audience that particular day and we didn't have our own sound guy, which you were supposed to have, so the owner of the rental company that supplied the sound system was kind enough to run sound for us and that clinched it, we won. The judges told us later that by the end of our first song the overall sound at the venue was about the best they had ever heard there, that was simply one man being intimately familiar with his pa equipment, it made all the difference in the world.

    So to 1988, a year under our belts and we had gotten pretty good, enough so that a RCA records rep flew in from California to see a show in Tulsa Oklahoma earlier that year (worst show we ever played by the way). At 21 my head had swelled, I was the jerk that now knew everything. We were set to do the battle of the bands again and this time we hired a local sound engineer who had produced a demo for us at a local studio. At the quick sound check he came to the stage and made one request, would I dial the gain/distortion back on my amp for him and my reply was absolutely not. Some of my friends from other bands let me know after our set that we were good except for one thing, my guitar tone was ear piercingly irritating. I learned a great lesson that day and now I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions or opinions without some consideration first, you never quit acquiring knowledge and nuggets can be acquired from sources you may not have ever considered.

    Long and somewhat boring post I know, but just for giggles Google Vance Powell, it was the sound engineer that made the request of me in 1988, I should have listened.....

  • hello. Quick update:


    Went to the rehearsal room with fresh ears. Found out that indeed i had maybe too much high end and low end. So, i did changed the low cut from 90hz to 115 hz . Also i lowered the presence . Now, i did found out that a -2 db cut at 4700 hz and a Q at 2.60, tamed even more the high end ear screaching frequencies. I don't know if it's a safe and corect method but it appears it works for the rehearsal room PA. Also all these changes made my monitor out eq for my IEM back to flat, from a pretty drastic eq before as in lowered bass, lowered presence and highs.

  • Wheresthedug I never could play guitar with just earprotection. Sadly. My intonation went south. So i was very happy when i finally got IEMs. But alas, like you, i damaged my hearing when i was young. Lot’s of earsplitting loud gigs. It is not as much hearing loss, i still have an above average hearing for my age (which is very surprising, considering). But the tinnitus is pretty bad.

    Can relate to this. I hear nothing above 13 khz. Frustrates me as I do more mixing and production these days and my ears are simply not telling me the full story. Also goes for the rest of the frequency band. Haven't checked for a while but I suspect there are several dips.

    Kemper PowerRack |Kemper Stage| Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune | 1988 Desert Yellow JEM

  • I have gravitated to IEMs to solve the problem for myself as well. I have created a simple rig for that. My vocal mic goes into a small mixer that I control. A second channel is fed by a high quality condenser mic placed on the stage very near my location. The condenser picks up all of the stage volume and I mix my vocal in IEMs to float over top so that I can hear and avoid monitor issues. FOH is handled as normal. It works for me and puts me back in control of what I hear.

    That's not dissimilar to what i do. I do skip the on stage mic though. I run the 1/4" outputs of my Kemper to my mixer, leaving the XLRs for FOH if using a house PA. My vocal mic connects to my mixer and one of the buss sends is a dry feed of just that, also to go to a house PA. But my IEM feed has the vocal mic slammed with compression and some reverb. Together with the bleed from the stage, I can hear the drums and bass just fine, with my guitar and vocals clear over the top. I can suffer a little with not hearing the other's vocal mics but only when they might choose to talk between songs.


    But when we use our own PA, I'm using the same mixer mentioned above so can add bass, drums and their vocals as much as I want.


    Whilst my method might not be producing true guitar hero sensations in my ears, I can hear my vocals and guitar perfectly, night after night without the input of a sound engineer.

  • That's not dissimilar to what i do. I do skip the on stage mic though. I run the 1/4" outputs of my Kemper to my mixer, leaving the XLRs for FOH if using a house PA. My vocal mic connects to my mixer and one of the buss sends is a dry feed of just that, also to go to a house PA. But my IEM feed has the vocal mic slammed with compression and some reverb. Together with the bleed from the stage, I can hear the drums and bass just fine, with my guitar and vocals clear over the top. I can suffer a little with not hearing the other's vocal mics but only when they might choose to talk between songs.


    But when we use our own PA, I'm using the same mixer mentioned above so can add bass, drums and their vocals as much as I want.


    Whilst my method might not be producing true guitar hero sensations in my ears, I can hear my vocals and guitar perfectly, night after night without the input of a sound engineer.

    That’s roughly how i handle my monitoring too. The two things i absolutely need to hear above the natural iem attenuation of the stage sound (these being my guitar and my vocals) i am in control of myself.

    And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

  • I have a custom mix for the entire band using my X32 Rack and an old Furman wired IEM rig. Each of the 4 band members can adjust their own mix on a phone app or tablet .... but generally, I just do it for them and they just handle the "more me" and overall volume.


    Being able to hear each other well is critical to having a good sounding gig. Keeping the stage volume low is a big part of that.