Create Sounds with Rig Manager WITHOUT guitar and Kemper

    Quote from guayom

    Is not always easy. You might need to try a few different amps. You might need to tweak eq a lot. Sometimes the rest of the band cannot afford to wait for you until you finish editing rigs.

    but if this is the case then you don’t know enough about what you need to tweak to be able to do it without having the Kemper there to hear the changes. How can you TRY a few different amps or tweak EQ a lot without hearing the results. It just isn’t possible.


    If you know that exactly what you need to do (say boost 3.2khz by 1.4db) then you know enough to do it quickly in the rehearsal. If you don’t know the exact tweaks needed the. You need to hear the changes (preferably in the context of the band mix) so you need the Kemper to audition the changes. I still can see how this concept would work in the real world.

    Solutions:


    a. Take your Profiler home (free'n'easy)

    b. Buy a second Profiler (not kidding, I have bought 4 of them)

    c. Get used to tweaking and do it on the fly during practice (best option and what wheresthedug already stated).


    PS: You can tweak the hell out of your rig, no matter how much and how long ... once you're with the band you'll feel more need to tweak. I have yet to come across a guitarist who will NOT immediately fiddle with the knobs on an amp, no matter how good it sounds or he adjusted it himself the day before. :D

    when I’m on tour I don’t always take my rig at home. It stays in the truck that directly goes to the other town.


    So having just the possibility of tweaking a profile like adding delays, programming tempo etc could be done on Rig Manager, put on a usb dongle and loaded at soundcheck. So even just having the settings would be fine for me.


    Rigs are stored on your computer, I’m sure they could be loaded with the settings in it.


    Sure I can do it at soundcheck, but tweakin in a hurry and make lose every other people time is not a great idea on tour.


    That’s not because you don’t have understand this need that it would not be useful for others.

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    but if this is the case then you don’t know enough about what you need to tweak to be able to do it without having the Kemper there to hear the changes. How can you TRY a few different amps or tweak EQ a lot without hearing the results. It just isn’t possible.


    If you know that exactly what you need to do (say boost 3.2khz by 1.4db) then you know enough to do it quickly in the rehearsal. If you don’t know the exact tweaks needed the. You need to hear the changes (preferably in the context of the band mix) so you need the Kemper to audition the changes. I still can see how this concept would work in the real world.

    You are absolutely right. You need to hear it. That's why I mentioned using pre-recorded DIs. But still, this might not be the perfect solution. The backing track you're using might need a different EQ than a live situation. Impossible to argue with that.

    I mentioned a few other examples where that feature is useful.

    lightbox I use option A. But would LOVE option B. 4 Kempers sounds so convenient! Sadly, I don't make enough money with music to justify the expense. LOL. And yeah C is the best. Takes time to get there. I never had a setup where I could boost 1db to X fequency, so I'd be lying if I said I can pin point something so specific.

    So A it is... until I can buy more Kempers or this feature is developed.

    Quote from guayom

    You are absolutely right. You need to hear it. That's why I mentioned using pre-recorded DIs.'

    How would the pre-recorded DIs be able to be heard without having the Kemper on hand?


    Your request implies that RM would actually create the same sounds as the KPA itself. This would involve turning arM into a full blown Kemper plug-in. At the moment RM is just a database. When you make a change to a sound it loads the sound into the KPA edit buffer and makes the changes there not in RM.


    As far as I am aware, the KPA relies on a specific chip which is not available in the PC/Mac that are running RM. If this is correct (I am about 99% sure it is) then turning RM into a plug-in would require a complete rewrite of the software which would be a major project. I doubt this is likely to happen, but you never know. If RM were to become a plug-in there would be no need for the pre recorded DIs either as you could just play yourself and hear the sound from the computer

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    Your request implies that RM would actually create the same sounds as the KPA itself. This would involve turning arM into a full blown Kemper plug-in. At the moment RM is just a database. When you make a change to a sound it loads the sound into the KPA edit buffer and makes the changes there not in RM.

    Isn't that what the OP is about? Maybe I misunderstood.

    ``` OP
    How awesome would it be if you could record a few riffs/licks in the Rig Manager and play them again and again whenever your guitar or Kemper is not next to you. So you could create new sounds and experiment with all the kemper effects you want.
    ```

    It's actually about just a lib of recordings, but yeah, it would require the computer to reproduce the sounds the Kemper would, so def need a plug-in.
    Or a Kemper mini only controlable through a computer/ipad/mobile?

    The OP appears to think that RM could produce the sounds to edit them. My point is simply that this isn’t a feature request but a whole new product request.


    Quote from From original post

    How awesome would it be if you could record a few riffs/licks in the Rig Manager and play them again and again whenever your guitar or Kemper is not next to you. So you could create new sounds and experiment with all the kemper effects you want.


    Think that should be easy to set up isn´t it?

    Clearly, this whole new product would be unlikely to fall into the category of “easy to set up”

    Given that the sound "engine" is the actual KPA there can't be any way to adjust parameters and try things out without it connected. They'd have to rebuild the code to run on Windows and Mac methinks.

    I've fully understood what it could bring, but one more time, i don't catch the approach.

    There's really something paradoxical in making changings without hearing them !


    In quality management, there's a tool called "Deming Wheel" with 4 steps ; PDCA (Plan, DO, Check, Act).

    This is a method to improve. In our case, we have to improve our sounds.


    Wether you have simple/quick modifications : why would you wait the night at the hotel to do them ?

    Time delay to change, do it, the result is OK, saved, Done : PDCA instantly....


    Or you have a lot of modifications to do. (Maybe the soundguy has to work too or will help ? :))

    But if you need an important amont of changes, how are you gonna remember them ? Note all of them on a sheet of paper (i think it's gonna take more time than doing the changes instantly) ?

    Do all the changes on Rig manager at night. Come back the day after with your USB Key, then ?

    You have to check all you have done is alright (or you wait for the surprise).


    Ok ; Performance One slot 1 ; i've changed the delay time, is that OK ? Yes/No

    P1 S2 , change the clarity, increase the gain, what is the result ?

    P1 S3 ; changed the modulation rate,

    Etc ?............................................................................


    I assume you don't have time to do so before the show ?!

    I agree the original poster’s suggestion wouldn’t work given the hardware is needed to reproduce the sound.


    but the offshoot question of having the ability to tweak and create performances without the hardware would be super useful.

    Just because some people think that idea is naff doesn’t mean it’s naff for others.


    I might have a library of sounds and I just want to build the base performances up.. with the aim to tweak later. Being able to do that without being plugged into the hardware would be very helpful.


    Or, let’s say that during a dress rehearsal I felt all my sounds of a given type needed a slight boost… or a tad more reverb. ie. I want to make the same repeatable change to a whole stack of rigs. I do not need the hardware to hear this change. Rather than stick around after the show to make all those changes laboriously on the unit, Wouldn’t it be great if I could do that at home later in RM and then bring the laptop in to the theatre to upload the changes. (Ofcourse would be great to do via usb but alas performances can’t be loaded via usb.. )


    so yes.. this would definitely be a handy feature. Just coz some of you think it’s stupid doesn’t mean it is.

    Quote from floyd99

    I agree the original poster’s suggestion wouldn’t work given the hardware is needed to reproduce the sound.


    but the offshoot question of having the ability to tweak and create performances without the hardware would be super useful.

    Just because some people think that idea is naff doesn’t mean it’s naff for others.

    Regardless if it's a good idea or not: I think it's technically not possible. The editor of the rig manager seems to be just a graphical reproduction of the profilers buttons. So if you turn a knob in the rig manager it's just a command (sent via USB) that the profiler executes then. That's how i understand the interface. The rig manager editor is just an extension for your arms :)

    I won't pretend i'm better than others !

    I don't use a lot of features on the Kemper and other devices but i easily understand added values for someone else.

    In this case, i really don't join all the arguments given.


    My way of working is this one :

    Step 1 ) Built a raw Rig with all amp/cab/Fx i need

    Step 2 ) Listen and tweak parameters to obtain sounds i'm pleased with at home

    Step 3) In Band situation, listen and improve my sound in this context


    Why ? Just to go more and more fine in my sound search

    I assume every one works that way or close to


    All the examples you give can be modified quickly and globally (fortunately) in live situation.

    The global EQ is done for that, the lock function is done for that. If you go to the FOH, all the parameters you are talking about are there (on the mix table) exactly to solve those kinds of problems ; to adapt your sound to the situation.


    When i have problems at rehearsal or gigs. I resolve them directly.

    It arrives sometimes that i don't cut the mix well. The singer shows me his ear X/:/ :) don't hear you on solos). Me too, it's done intentionally :P;)^^!

    Do you think i wait to change parameters alone at home ? No, i say ; "sorry guys, it's gonna take 30 seconds but for the next song you gonna hear me" !


    If i follow your procedure, so eg, i notice that i need more middle/treble ;

    OK, you say you have to modify it repeatably on all your RIGs, does it mean that you go in every amp rig's parameters to change the mid/treble value ? Do you really do that ? Seriously ? :wacko:

    And ; how far are you gonna push the value ; mid : +0.5/+1/+1.5 ?

    Are you gonna do all the rehearsal/gig without hearing you ?


    In fact, the thing i find aberrant is that to improve a sound, you purpose a solution in which you don't work in context and you work blind


    I could eventually understand that it can be useful for the first step i was talking about...

    You want a raw Rig, you through all the blocks in RM that you imagine will be useful but you'll quickly need to work with sound at home or in situation.


    So, do i still think this feature would bring few improvements ? Yes, i do

    While I am very firmly of the opinion that there is little or no value in having the ability to edit sounds without hearing the changes, I do agree with some of your points about bulk editing and performance management.


    It would be fantastic to have the ability to create base Performances without the KPA being on hand (I actually thought we could already do this but I have just tried it and it crashed Rig Manager several times so I guess we can't ;().


    If we assume that many users typically use only a handful of favourite rigs in the majority of their performances, we can assume these users would know which rigs to load in each slot for a desired performance.


    They may also know which Stomps and FX they want to load in each slot even though specific settings may need to be adjusted when able to hear the sound (although an FX preset should get most of the way there).


    Finally, they may be expected to know which Stomps or FX they want to assign to each Remote/Stage Footswitch. Doing this when creating a performance would be a big advantage. The recent addition of Auto Assigning Footswitches is a great step in the right direction but the ability to simply assign footswitches within RM would be ideal.


    The ability to perform batch/bulk editing would also be helpful.


    At the moment you can make batch changes to Tags such as Amp Name etc which speeds up database management but it would be nice to also be able to apply some general bulk changes. For example, some popular profilers consistently boost the Amp and/or Rig volume of their Profiles significantly. As a result they are always much too loud for the rest of my rigs. Having the ability to simply select a bunk of these rigs and lower the amp volume to a fixed number (eg 0.0db) instead of manually editing and saving each rig individually. Another well known profiler often sets the Delay/Rev routing at +58% on all their rigs. I invariably reset this to 0% for all of them. Doing this manually is very time consuming and a major PITA.


    These types of global changes aren't really tone tweaking but just general housekeeping. I can definitely see the ability to do this sort of housekeeping off line as being useful especially for musicians who travel and may spend a lot of time sitting in airport lounges or on tour buses with a laptop but no KPA.

    Steve5478

    I do theatre shows. They are vastly different to the gigs I assume you do.

    Do I adjust parameters in every single rig/performance? YES. I do not use global eq etc. every sound is unique. Every piece of music is individually mixed to suit the scene of what’s going on on-stage. A solo sound in one song might have a Rig volume set vastly lower than another song, because it’s played underneath cast dialogue (talking). I pride myself on having consistency in my sound from one show to the next as the FOH sound operator is NOT actively mixing the band every night - they are focused on the 30 cast radio mics. They rely on the pre-programmed automation and therefore in turn rely on the musicians to be as consistent as possible.


    I don’t have the luxury of stopping a rehearsal to say “sorry folks just give me 30 seconds, I think my solo sound in that song needs a slight tweak”.


    I make mental (or physical) notes for any changes I want to make that I don’t have time to, and then go back and make them later.


    Quite literally every single sound change throughout the show is a new independent rig that I am either cycling through in order, or by using Performances (depends on the complexity of the show).


    Example; during my home programming I set reverb level on all the sounds to a certain level.

    Once I’m running the show I find I’m losing it in the mix and want to bump it up by 10% in every sound. I don’t need the hardware to make this change. I just need to make the same change on a heap of rigs. That means going through anywhere from 50-100 rigs to adjust that parameter.


    This would be nice to do at home on my couch while the Kemper is back at the theatre.


    Sorry for the long posts.. just thought it would be interesting for folks who may be used to playing in cover bands but not have an appreciation that there is other forms of gigs and we work a little different 😉

    Personally I would like to see a noise generator as an effect module. "A" weighting, pink and white noise selectable. It's how I set my rigs initial level in performance mode, that along with a calibrated SPL meter.

    Quote from floyd99

    Sorry for the long posts.. just thought it would be interesting for folks who may be used to playing in cover bands but not have an appreciation that there is other forms of gigs and we work a little different 😉

    No need to apologise floyd. I am actually fascinated by the way you work and the intricacies of these shows. An old band mate does trumpet in lots of shows. Two other old band mates are drummers that do shows pretty much exclusively, one in the touring productions of West End shows the other is pretty much Andre Lloyd Webber’s first call for original cast new shows. These guys work on a level I can only dream of . I am sure you are working to similar standards in which case you have my total admiration 🤘

    +1


    that was exactly my point.