cutting through in live band with 2 guitars when other player uses valve amp

  • Beg to differ. I have spent good money on profiles with good reputation & they still needed a significant tweak.

    Unfortunately, the fact a profile cost money - and is from a reputable source - doesn’t guarantee suitability for a specific purpose.


    Some of the most useless profiles (for me) are from makers others swear by. Some of the most useful were free.

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • Unfortunately, the fact a profile cost money - and is from a reputable source - doesn’t guarantee suitability for a specific purpose.


    Some of the most useless profiles (for me) are from makers others swear by. Some of the most useful were free.

    The point here is that live does require profiles that suit.


    As Rufus said its not about the cost but about other factors...


    I play exclusively live, i.e. I just don't use my Kemper at home. I don't tweak much at all. I certainly don't mess with low and high cut filters or crazy eq-ing

  • Unfortunately, the fact a profile cost money - and is from a reputable source - doesn’t guarantee suitability for a specific purpose.


    Some of the most useless profiles (for me) are from makers others swear by. Some of the most useful were free.


    Agree. But I have paid for direct profiles (now I'm using cab) & studio (when I used Kones) from some of the best names like Sinmix, Cililab etc & while they are generally excellent they have all needed EQ. And same for well regarded free user posted ones.


    Honestly not yet had a profile of any sort that I loaded in & used as is. So my point is that, in my experience, the right profile gets you so far. But just to say "buy the right profile" risks missing what I've seen to be a critical component.

  • this sounds like some basic live/band issues to me:


    • if it's solo time, the other guitar player should be in support mode, playing- and level-wise; his job is now to not let the perceived level of energy drop without encroaching on the soloists territory
    • guitar is a mids instrument. kick and bass will cover up your lows and the cymbals will mask the high-end - mids are your friend
    • set a solo sound and then turn down the volume pot on your guitar to create a rhythm sound - I use this often live. You can of course also use a negative boost (Booster Stomp, Level <0) to make it foot-switchable (while activating a nice delay at the same time)

    This is right on. IME, these basic concepts are not put into practice very well. The volume and tone knobs on our guitars are there for a reason and they actually work. Low cut is a great tool and 170Hz is not brutal in any way. The majority of guitarists employ too much low end. I really dislike playing bass with those guys. Invariably, it is a muddy mess. Many musicians don't know how to allow space in the room. For me, it all starts with the drummer. The drummer sets the basic level in most cases. I love it when I ask the drummer to play louder, but it almost never happens. How to achieve a dynamic, balanced mix with space is different in every band, but it is almost always a combination of the points Don(and others) mentioned. YMMV...

  • Exactly!


    Its called a Volume Potentiometer not an On/Off switch as many people seem to believe.

    While I agree, not everyone wants to (or uses a sound that) does well with the pot turned down.


    With a Strat or Tele - it’s super easy, though.


    It is especially difficult with Gibson style controls (2 volume, 2 tone, no master). If you mix both pickups (which I do frequently) - turning down ain’t gonna work. 😁

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • ... It is especially difficult with Gibson style controls (2 volume, 2 tone, no master). If you mix both pickups (which I do frequently) - turning down ain’t gonna work. 😁

    I respect your viewpoint, but I do it on every gig. Yes, it takes a little getting used to, but it does work for me.

  • I respect your viewpoint, but I do it on every gig. Yes, it takes a little getting used to, but it does work for me.

    👍 Horses for courses.


    It’s amazing how we’ll all come up with what works for ourselves…..but often turn around and shun someone for using a $30 pedal or choosing the ‘wrong’ digital amp.


    Hypocrisy is an interesting thing. 🙄


    (No - this is not directed at any one person. Just an observation. I’ll go back to tilting at windmills.)

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    Edited once, last by Ruefus ().

  • This is right on. IME, these basic concepts are not put into practice very well. The volume and tone knobs on our guitars are there for a reason and they actually work. Low cut is a great tool and 170Hz is not brutal in any way. The majority of guitarists employ too much low end. I really dislike playing bass with those guys. Invariably, it is a muddy mess. Many musicians don't know how to allow space in the room. For me, it all starts with the drummer. The drummer sets the basic level in most cases. I love it when I ask the drummer to play louder, but it almost never happens. How to achieve a dynamic, balanced mix with space is different in every band, but it is almost always a combination of the points Don(and others) mentioned. YMMV...


    I was a newbie to it all until recently & honestly was surprised at some of the advice & opinion that circulates. I was getting super frustrated... Got kemper expecting (I know... Wrongly) a use out of box experience but I was waaaay short in live setting with both Kones & cab. I've probably spent way more than needed to get there but hey it was fun & good experience.


    Most online articles say cut under 100 Hz. One said "some players even go up as far as 150 to 180" hence my post wording.


    I play with a very hard hitting drummer plus a lead guitarist who sets his level very high, esp on leads, and it took me a while to figure out that I was as near as dammit to "good live tone" but he was a major part of the equation. That might sound "duh" on here but it is a hobby & not a job for me. Playing live certainly. 20 years of bedroom noodling then a late in life band join isn't great schooling.


    My point was, that for users like me, just saying "get the right profile" isn't wrong but it risks frustration with an inexperienced user. I'm now using a profile I have had for 2 years with frustrating results & now crushing it. The only variables there are 1) having the chat about band dynamics & 2) EQ.


    Post I'm replying to confirms that. Tone knobs, low cut, dynamics. You guys might think that's a no brainer but to a relative newbie, it isn't.

  • You are correct. Two guitarists really changes the dynamics of things. Add to that a stage and an audience as opposed to bedroom and alone and you have quite a shock. Playing live and recording are two entirely different animals. That said, it sounds like you're learning and that's the great thing. Never stop learning. And even more importantly, don't be afraid to "unlearn" some things along the way. After 40 years of playing, unlearning some things has become paramount to progression.


    I am mostly a live player so I've been dealing with bedroom sound vs live band sound for years. I've learned to compensate. Rarely does anything that sounds awesome to me when I'm jamming at home, sound remotely good for a live show. That took some time to get used to. When I listen to my live presets at home it's everything I can do to NOT tweak them. I think it's just human nature. You always want to sound great. But yes, making those EQ tweaks for your live performance can set you apart from your inexperienced brethren.


    I hope you find your way to sonic bliss. My Kemper Stage is one of the best things to ever happen to me tone-wise.

  • The other guitarist that I play with most is my brother. We're like one organism when playing together. Whoever is playing rhythm just naturally backs off a bit without letting the song energy fall flat. When I play with a "one-volume basher" I'm always astounded that they have no sense of the dynamics and interplay - just bash bash bash.

  • It all changed for me when I had to become the singer too. Suddenly, all I needed was to be able to hear my guitar just enough.


    When I was a teenager, I was that guy that always got told I played too loud but I didn't care, I was having a great time. I must have been unbearable.


    Now I make sure whatever cab or speaker I'm using is positioned to reach my ears, not my legs. I keep the tone consistent and just loud enough to hear what I'm doing. I don't do anything much with EQ but my profiles are tried and tested live but somehow still sound good at home.


    Now I get asked by others in the band and sound guys to turn up (if I'm using a cab, admittedly I mostly use IEMs).


    My sound also got much better in 2017 when the second guitarist quit. He was another one of those crank it, point the cab at me and stand somewhere else guys. He even admitted that if i played lead, he would boost his sound to fill in the void....... So many decent guitarists out there but which have no concept of good band manners.

  • "I put that void there for a reason!" 😀

  • While I agree, not everyone wants to (or uses a sound that) does well with the pot turned down.


    With a Strat or Tele - it’s super easy, though.


    It is especially difficult with Gibson style controls (2 volume, 2 tone, no master). If you mix both pickups (which I do frequently) - turning down ain’t gonna work. 😁

    yeh, the LP has the knobs in the wrong place. That’s it second biggest design flaw after the detachable headstock 🤣


    I hear what you are saying but I would actually argue that the LP style 4 pot layout is actually the daddy for using the pots to shape sound especially in the middle position. The range of sounds available from varying the balance between the two pickups is massive. The volume pot can be used in many ways to shape sound and/or ride level but the point remains that too many people see it as an On/Off switch. I freely admit to my shame that I was one of them for way too many years.

  • Agree. But I have paid for direct profiles (now I'm using cab) & studio (when I used Kones) from some of the best names like Sinmix, Cililab etc & while they are generally excellent they have all needed EQ. And same for well regarded free user posted ones.


    Honestly not yet had a profile of any sort that I loaded in & used as is. So my point is that, in my experience, the right profile gets you so far. But just to say "buy the right profile" risks missing what I've seen to be a critical component.

    Having also used many profiles from Sinmix, Cililab and 8 years using it live, not all profiles are equal.


    All I am suggesting is that the answer is rarely to take a base profile that is "OK" and make it sound fantastic.


    Better to find a profile that already sounds good and make only minor tweaks than a profile that doesn't sound right and make it right through eq.


    As I said, I don't eq hardly at all. Ironically at our last gig, my sound cut through too much, it was too prominent and I'll need to drop the volume a bit.

  • yeh, the LP has the knobs in the wrong place. That’s it second biggest design flaw after the detachable headstock 🤣


    I hear what you are saying but I would actually argue that the LP style 4 pot layout is actually the daddy for using the pots to shape sound especially in the middle position. The range of sounds available from varying the balance between the two pickups is massive. The volume pot can be used in many ways to shape sound and/or ride level but the point remains that too many people see it as an On/Off switch. I freely admit to my shame that I was one of them for way too many years.

    Given that I tried to put my Les Paul on my guitar stand on Saturday and missed, I nearly experienced the detachable headstock!!! In fact I have dared not look at it in the daylight yet.....


    I kinda disagree about using the guitar volume for 2 reasons ( and these are generic):

    1) it tends to reduce gain rather than/as well as volume. So then the opposite for solos is it can muddy things up. Lower gain can be more cutting.

    2) Its too imprecise. Using your ears on stage for me is too in-accurate which is why a want a pre set volume boost.


    That's why I feel this is a workaround rather than an answer :)