cutting through in live band with 2 guitars when other player uses valve amp

  • You're entitled to your opinion Guy - even though you're wrong ;)

    The fact that that volume pot reduces gain as well as level is part of it's magic. Guys like Angus and Jeff etc tend to set their base rhythm sound with the guitar volume on 6 - 7 and work from there. for more or less volume/gain. Jeff Beck uses the volume almost like a compressor a lot of the time by fading in more gain as the not fades. If it's good enough for Jeff, it's good enough for mere mortals like us 8)

  • You're entitled to your opinion Guy - even though you're wrong ;)

    The fact that that volume pot reduces gain as well as level is part of it's magic. Guys like Angus and Jeff etc tend to set their base rhythm sound with the guitar volume on 6 - 7 and work from there. for more or less volume/gain. Jeff Beck uses the volume almost like a compressor a lot of the time by fading in more gain as the not fades. If it's good enough for Jeff, it's good enough for mere mortals like us 8)

    Im always wrong :)


    My point wasn't that the volume control isn't useful. Jeff beck and many others use it to change their sounds. My point was its "less" effective as a solo boost. Of course people use it but I personally think its a workaround/habit. It's a bit like saying the Gibson SG is the best guitar in the world because Angus uses one.


    My other point is - Im nowhere near as good as Jeff so I don;t have the talent to control my playing that way...im all or nothing :)

  • You're entitled to your opinion Guy - even though you're wrong ;)

    The fact that that volume pot reduces gain as well as level is part of it's magic. Guys like Angus and Jeff etc tend to set their base rhythm sound with the guitar volume on 6 - 7 and work from there. for more or less volume/gain. Jeff Beck uses the volume almost like a compressor a lot of the time by fading in more gain as the not fades. If it's good enough for Jeff, it's good enough for mere mortals like us 8)

    I have to say that the Kemper does volume pot control very well, as good or better than a tube amp. I say better because with the compression control in the amp section, you can adjust how much level you want to loose (If any) when you turn down the guitar volume knob. I think it is a vital tweeking parameter for those that like to use their volume knob to adjust gain a bit. Previously, I had modelers that when volume pot turned down turned into grainy mess so I never used it and always just switched presets for different gain levels/volumes. With tube amps (and now with the Kemper) I'm finding out hotter pickups with a mid/high gain profile sound amazing for rhythm backed off a bit and give enough gain to play leads by cranking the pot and clean boosting it. I believe the Kemper likes lower output pickups a lot and doesn't need a lot of help. P90s are great albeit noisy. The clarity and harmonics of single coils really comes through and the different ways you can compress the sound can really put the icing on top.

  • The other guitarist that I play with most is my brother. We're like one organism when playing together. Whoever is playing rhythm just naturally backs off a bit without letting the song energy fall flat. When I play with a "one-volume basher" I'm always astounded that they have no sense of the dynamics and interplay - just bash bash bash.

    I played with one of those in a recent band, and they were so bad that they would step on their boost each time they heard me kick mine in for a solo. I hated every minute of it and the experience has totally put me off two guitar bands.

  • that is kinda the point ;)
    the Compressor in the AMP section of the PROFILER is very good at evening out volume differences between a guitar with the volume pot all the way up and turned down

    Erm I'm starting to lose the thread here a little...


    The original comment was about cutting through and then onto solo's. The suggestion was to use the guitar volume knob. My limited experience tells me that ( regardless of valve or Kemper), it doesn't have a direct effect on increasing in volume but mainly gain.


    As a result for me that is less effective as a reverse solo boost than a dedicated morph or patch.


    So I agree with everyone that for getting different sounds, guitar volume adds another dimension, particularly with a single guitar, but for boosting for solo's where I would want more cut and volume over another guitar its less effective because more gain tends to fatten the sound ( a cleaner sound tends to cut more) and not much more volume.


    Its similar regarding parallel effects loops. One way of boosting solos was to put an eq pedal in the effects loop as a booster. for a series effects loop this works really well, for a parallel I found it less effective because the boost was extremely limited...OK not the same but its a similar analogy. That and turning down the volume control, I feel, is because many amps had limited channels, so these were the only options ( along with slapping a boost pedal on front of the amp to get more gain). With the KPA this is now unnecessary for solo boosting as you can preset volume tone and even amp...


    Am I missing something ?

  • I played with one of those in a recent band, and they were so bad that they would step on their boost each time they heard me kick mine in for a solo. I hated every minute of it and the experience has totally put me off two guitar bands.

    I agree that the other guitarist needs to hold back but boosting whilst you solo...that is plain stupid. Its a classic guitarist ego " I must be heard, I MUST be heard"... and they forget its a band not a backing band for them...


    Not surprised you were annoyed...

  • I mostly have played in a one guitar band and still think of bringing things in correctly when the vocals are happening. Dynamics are so important to keeping your audience interested and paying attention. Which is why at most metal shows, I'm good for a handful of songs and that's it. Just smashing and crashing and hollering. When I have played in two guitar bands I always paid a lot of attention to my dynamics to let the other guy shine through. Unfortunately that wasn't always reciprocated. Dynamics are VERY important.

  • Interesting topic.


    - Add Alex Lifeson to the guys who set their tone at vol knob on 7. Roll to 10 during a solo, etc.


    - I am confused how adding a boost AFTER the amp is not working? Seems impossible, it has to work by the laws of physics.


    - When I used to play out (the old days) I would get screamed at by the sound guy when I boosted for solos. They always demanded that they adjust my volume. I used to run a 3 channel amp just for this purpose and then ended up never using channel 3 live. It may have just been because I am terrible on guitar.


    - Dynamics are the domain of professionals. Newer bands (noobs), everyone goes to 11 the whole song. I am with Dyno, I can only listen to most kinds of music for 4-5 songs if it is just go go go the whole time. I dont know how many times I had this talk in bands. Weirdly I never listen to country and they are the best at dynamics with little solo sections popping in/out all thru the verses etc. Maybe I should start... no I cant my wife hates country. Tool is as close to dynamic as I normally get.


    - For years I was lost on how The Edge got a jangley strat tone on his Explorer with humbuckers... answer middle position and tweak the vol/tone pots on the guitar. Its a thing.


    - Since I feel like my Kemper lacks dynamics. Even to the point that like Dyno's metal show example, I only enjoy playing it for short periods of time because it sounds so flat. So I was very interested in hearing this topic play out. Almost the same day this thread started, a similar thread on the Helix site was posted. I am sure if I were on the Marshall forums I would see something there also. There are just so many variables you cant control to worry too much about this topic, you can only trust in your PA and soundman in the end. It has to be flat and he/she has to be smart or you will sound bad no matter what. Having a Kemper already removes the bad microphone positioning problems so you are way ahead of the game!

  • When I used to play out (the old days) I would get screamed at by the sound guy when I boosted for solos. They always demanded that they adjust my volume. I used to run a 3 channel amp just for this purpose and then ended up never using channel 3 live. It may have just been because I am terrible on guitar.

    Gee I wish I had that problem. Normally bar soundguys are usually chatting up chicks or listening to the drums on headphones etc. when solos happen. Then about 1/3 way through they turn them up when they realize what's happening or someone elbows them in the ribs. That used to drive me nuts because they're not paying attention. A couple months ago , I set up in a local "pay to play" type original club with house P.A. The house sound guy wanted to hear my boost level for solos as that would be up to me. When I asked him about the solo mix he said "Well you have a boost right?" So I have had the complete opposite experience where the sound guy wants to do as little as possible and totally expected me to boost levels for leads. I learned it takes a lot more than you think it would programming boosts in your studio. What seems like plenty of boost at home, isn't nearly enough and when set at a gig and brought home, the correct amount would make you jump when you switched to it! Speaking of that and dynamics, many people program their clean sounds too loud and when they switch to distortion it sounds weak and thin. Clean sounds are more dynamic and less compressed naturally and my experience is that they need to be much lower than you would think. I'd have it to where I thought the crunch sound was really kicking in and I'd get asked to turn the clean sound down or else risk my whole mix being turned down.

  • Erm I'm starting to lose the thread here a little...


    The original comment was about cutting through and then onto solo's. The suggestion was to use the guitar volume knob. My limited experience tells me that ( regardless of valve or Kemper), it doesn't have a direct effect on increasing in volume but mainly gain.

    No, I don’t think you’re missing anything Guy. The more gain the basic profile has the less effective the guitar volume pot is for raising the solo level. For totally gained out metal it makes no difference in volume at all but with a Plexi or Tweed Deluxe etc it can provide a nlittle ce volume lift (as Angus has shown).


    By the way , the SG clearly is the best guitar because not only Angus used one but also Tony Iommi. Case closed 😁 (I don’t actually own an SG but thats not the point. I only play inferior guitars lke PRS and Musicman 😆)

  • The more gain the basic profile has the less effective the guitar volume pot is for raising the solo level

    Not just the Kemper but most all amps. I try to set the amp compression in my profiles so that when the pot goes down. the volume stays correct in the mix but cleans up. Then all I have to do is add boost and it's solo time! If it's a sound I won't likely be manipulating with the volume control, I won't mess with compression much.

  • - While true, Lifeson learned to do that when guitarists had no choice.
    - unless you’re sticking it in the reverb slot, a boost is still going to be limited by what comes after. It may not behave like a ‘real’ amp because….it isn’t.


    - No dynamics? I find very much the opposite. But I also run low to mid-gain.

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • I have to say that the Kemper does volume pot control very well, as good or better than a tube amp. I say better because with the compression control in the amp section, you can adjust how much level you want to loose (If any) when you turn down the guitar volume knob. I think it is a vital tweeking parameter for those that like to use their volume knob to adjust gain a bit. Previously, I had modelers that when volume pot turned down turned into grainy mess so I never used it and always just switched presets for different gain levels/volumes. With tube amps (and now with the Kemper) I'm finding out hotter pickups with a mid/high gain profile sound amazing for rhythm backed off a bit and give enough gain to play leads by cranking the pot and clean boosting it. I believe the Kemper likes lower output pickups a lot and doesn't need a lot of help. P90s are great albeit noisy. The clarity and harmonics of single coils really comes through and the different ways you can compress the sound can really put the icing on top.

    Interesting! I'm finding that my Kemper rigs tend to keep the level too even between backed-off guitar volume (4-6) and opened up (8-10). The manual seems to suggest that adjusting one of the input "sense" controls is the answer, but it's unclear to me which of them (clean? dirty?) to tweak. Yours is the first comment I've read that suggests amp compression to solve the problem. If I want backed-off volume to be softer do you suggest reducing compression? Or, am I misunderstanding something?

  • I played with one of those in a recent band, and they were so bad that they would step on their boost each time they heard me kick mine in for a solo. I hated every minute of it and the experience has totally put me off two guitar bands.

    Yes, it can be a sonic clusterf**k, but I'm fortunate enough to work with another player who has a good sense of dynamics and knows how to keep his tone complimentary rather than competing for spectrum. Between the two of us we've been playing for about 100 years, so that's a factor as well.