Where does the sound of an amp come from ?

  • He's never claimed that people shouldn't work on their sound. He has fantastic tone and has worked hard to achieve that. I think dismissing him as click bait is unfair and misses the whole point.

  • He's never claimed that people shouldn't work on their sound. He has fantastic tone and has worked hard to achieve that. I think dismissing him as click bait is unfair and misses the whole point.

    He is obviously quite technically qualified since he was able to do some pretty detailed use cases to make his point. Even a seasoned engineer would have had to REALLLLLY wanted to make a point to do all the work needed to make a video like that. Such work is commendable IMO.


    On the other hand, I don't agree with his assessment.


    No matter what you do to a triple rectifier, it will never sound like a fender black face. We all know this (well, anyone who has played around or owned them certainly does).


    What is fundamentally true IMO is that all amplifiers produce a modified and louder version of what you put into them. They do this through several mechanisms, but at the end of the day, using a set of fundamental sound "building blocks" including equalization, different distortion algorithms, signal path, etc, it is possible to get close to different amp sounds with different combinations of those fundamental building blocks.


    Changing tube bias as an example ......


    It is totally undeniable that changing amp bias from cool to hot makes your amp sound different. The question the video poses is "can you make adjustments in other parts of the circuit that bring you back to the same sound"? Possibly, but based on my own experience with tube amps, my memory says it isn't the same (on an amp that utilizes power amp distortion vs preamp distortion).


    Changing the speaker cab you are using definitely causes a night and day change in tone and the dynamics of your rig. While it is true that the cab and speakers fundamentally change your eq, that isn't all it does. Speakers break up at different levels and interact with the output of your amp (they are essentially variable inductors in the circuit).


    I guess what I am saying is that someone else could make a video that conclusively proves that making a change to "fill in the blank" in an amplifier absolutely changes the tone IMO.


    It simply can't be that nothing really matters in the tube amp with respect to the sound, otherwise you would simply need to tweak a

    fender black face to get a Mesa triple rectifier sound. As I said, I have actually been in a room with both these amps and can unequivocally say that it is not possible. It doesn't matter if you send the output of each amp to the same cab either (I have done that just to be silly).


    Now that I have said all this, I need to watch the video again ;).

  • Ok, listened again.


    Compelling I agree ...... but.


    1) Utilizing switches on an amp to move things in and out may not do what you think. You would need to look at the circuit and see exactly what was going on.


    2) Running amps into the same cab tends to make the amps all sound similar IME. I kept my 2x12 VHT fat bottom cab with VHT P90 speakers in it when I sold the rest of my VHT tube amp rig. It wasn't until I moved to FRFR that I could clearly hear a big difference between different rigs. Now, I am not sure that all guitar cabs to this, but I know for a fact that my VHT 2x12 cab does.


    3) All the "loops" were heavily strummed cords. It is really hard to tell how well the setup reacted to touch with that input.


    It may be that all amps are identical and that I have simply been hearing things my entire life ;). It may also be that the guitar cab has WAY more impact on guitar tone that I have been giving it credit for and that there is less difference between amps once you take out the default "voicing" of the eq (ie make it flat as he did in the video).


    I would like to have seen him run the output into a FRFR speaker instead of the guitar cabs since my own experience with this is that you can indeed make many KPA profiles sound similar with at least some guitar cabs .... and that is without even trying to make them sound the same.

  • And yet Eric Johnson claims that even the battery in his pedal does "the trick".


    Go figure..


    Ingolf


    Actually it was me who did not claim anything yet I was accused of being "arrogant".


    You somehow missed that..

  • It simply can't be that nothing really matters in the tube amp with respect to the sound, otherwise you would simply need to tweak a

    fender black face to get a Mesa triple rectifier sound. As I said, I have actually been in a room with both these amps and can unequivocally say that it is not possible. It doesn't matter if you send the output of each amp to the same cab either (I have done that just to be silly).

    All these kind of videos say nothing about tiny little details and 00000,1% differences which are "the whole world" to most players.


    Maybe if they (all.these guys trying to say amps and woods and "all these things don't matter" would play brothers in arms or the intro of the dark side of the moon we would hear these differences.


    But there is ofcourse a problem..


    Strumming three chords says nothing . It is crazy even to discuss this.

  • As per usual this is about balance.


    People tend to think that something like tube bias will make a significant difference and make them sound so much better. The answer is of course it makes a difference, the point is by how much and what that translates to you.


    The video's to me show where the biggest differences are, just like guitars themselves. I don't buy guitars now for their sound but the way they look, how they play and how they make me feel. Given that most guitars are decent quality, I suspect that is how most people buy guitars. That influences how I play. If I don't like how it sounds, I change the pickups. Much of that is psychological and perception. In the same way I didn't believe the KPA sounded as good as a valve amp for quite sometime...


    I think this shows that the biggest impact on sound is fingers, cabs, tone stacks, guitar pickups. Everything else is on a descending scale of impact. That is useful to know.


    So that other stuff - yes makes a difference but not as significant as you might think. So he is correct. The video is factual. I don't think he is commenting on how much anyone should care about that other stuff....

  • He's not claiming that all amps sound the same. The idea is that many of the things that we pretend are having a significant impact on the tone are not and the real tonal sculpting comes from how the amp designer uses eq and gain stages. To my ears he showed that, so I won't be talked out of it. I'm happy to listen to any alternative experiments.

  • I only implied the arrogance because you implied he was just some internet shill looking for clicks. I don't think he deserves that.

  • I only implied the arrogance because you implied he was just some internet shill looking for clicks. I don't think he deserves that.

    Is this not the same guy who implied in another video that "wood doesn't matter";


    If he is (and I believe he is) this guy I will not apologize.

  • Is this not the same guy who implied in another video that "wood doesn't matter";


    If he is (and I believe he is) this guy I will not apologize.

    I'm not going to talk about a video you haven't watched and listened to. Use your ears and develop your own opinion based on that.


    He never says no difference. It's all about what makes a noticeable difference based on your ears.

  • All I know is professional players usually sound the same from night to night even when the supplied gear may not be the same. Players such as Sonny Lantreth and other greats definitely have their own tone in their fingers.

  • I'm not going to talk about a video you haven't watched and listened to. Use your ears and develop your own opinion based on that.


    He never says no difference. It's all about what makes a noticeable difference based on your ears.

    Actually like most other musicians I use my ears and don't need clickbait videos to tell me where the sound of amps and guitars come from.


    So.. In some way we agree I guess..

  • Very true.


    So ..... I would put things in the following order of importance to the "tone" of your rig:


    1. Amp genre and voicing (My earlier argument that you can't make a MESA triple rect sound like a Fender BF)
    2. Guitar genre and pickups (you can't make standard strat single coil pickups sound like high gain actives ... or vise versa)
    3. Guitar cab
    4. Guitar fretboard and controls
    5. everything else about the guitar and amp.

    This is, of course, assuming the same level of competency in the guitarist.


    I still argue that despite the video and its assertions, the guitar amp is among the most influential portions of the guitar rig chain. It is possible that I have misplaced the guitar cab in the priority list (it may in fact be higher than the first 2).


    I fully agree that there is little need to buy a very expensive guitar today in order to get the best sounding guitar quality. A PRS SE outfitted with Bare Knuckles pickups (like mine ;) ) will sound better than the most expensive PRS you can buy (thousands of dollars more expensive). Now, it won't look better!


    On the flip side, putting the most desired NOS tubes in a poor tube amp will not make it sound better than a very good tube amp with cheap off-the-shelf tubes. Not even close.


    These are, of course, just my opinions. YMMV.

  • OneEng1 where in the video is he saying that a Fender BF and a triple rectifier can be made to sound the same with just tweaking ?
    He is wondering where the sound come from in an amplifier. His findings suggest that the tone stack (and not the type of tubes) is making the biggest differences. AFAIK, the tone stack in a BF and in a high gain amp are not the same (even when the first Mesas were modified Princetons).

  • Thomas Blug is MY personal authority when it comes to tone. He is a genius.


    So... here we go:


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    Edited once, last by Alienator ().

  • Thomas Blug is MY personal authority when it comes to tone. He is a genius.


    So... here we go:


    External Content youtu.be
    Content embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.
    Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.

    I have to admit I didn't get what he was talking about, other than how amp sag works. Is he saying that different types/quality of rectifier tubes affects the tone or are those amps just different? He's always preferred the bottom one, which sounds like VH over the top one, which sounds like SRV. Why not replace the tubes in the top one to make it identical? Or is there something else involved, like some component values in one of the gain or eq stages?

  • Several things I noticed about this new video:


    1. Gone is the 3 cord heavy strum replaced by a combination of picking at different velocities and using many different playing methods.
    2. A real guitar circuit is shown with its multiple gain stages and the presenter correctly points out the the entire chain of circuits creates the "tone".
    3. An oscilloscope is use to show how different distortion looks on the scope while it decays (I was hoping they were going to do an RTA and show the harmonics which are also very important).

    It wasn't as complete, and certainly not presented in as clean a way as the first video; however, it fixes some of my gripes with the methodology used in the first video.

  • Several things I noticed about this new video:


    1. Gone is the 3 cord heavy strum replaced by a combination of picking at different velocities and using many different playing methods.
    2. A real guitar circuit is shown with its multiple gain stages and the presenter correctly points out the the entire chain of circuits creates the "tone".
    3. An oscilloscope is use to show how different distortion looks on the scope while it decays (I was hoping they were going to do an RTA and show the harmonics which are also very important).

    It wasn't as complete, and certainly not presented in as clean a way as the first video; however, it fixes some of my gripes with the methodology used in the first video.

    Its really interesting isn't, because both leave loads of questions:

    1) Jim's vid he used a looper to take out variability. That in itself makes sense but also takes out any interaction

    2) Jim never tried different tubes (if I remember) - I can imagine a worn tube will sound different to a new one. In other words, the tubes themselves must have a reasonably significant affect on the sound as when old or failing we can definitely hear it. I do wonder whether the switchable part of the amps are really mimicing changes in bias. Therefore I'm not surprised when AOT actually changed the valves that they sound different. They didn't answer why just that it did.

    3) Jim's video didn't answer - why do the same amp, particularly vintage ones, sound different anyway. Same circuit, same tubes but still do sound different, some sweeter than others...I can guess but...


    I go back to what I said. I don't think anyone is saying it has no impact...the debate is how big...I think it's the law of diminishing returns. For some people it will mean everything (Eric Johnson springs to mind) to others it's how you feel - which can be why one day you think your amp sounds amazing and the following day duff.


    The only thing that changed is how you felt...


    Curious!


    I still think there are little gremlins in each amp, messing around with some parameters to just screw us over...it's how I explain I don't sound like Van Halen...