Harsh recording tone while sounding great over Kemper Kabinet

  • Hi fellow tone chasers,


    I know the subject of "harsh tone" has been discussed in this forum at length, and I have done my best to educate myself by reading all the threads I could find, watching tutorials and reading the Kemper manual before opening another discussion. And yet, it seems like I am missing something. :|


    Disclaimer: I am really new to recording and still have a lot to learn about the Kemper as well, so please bear with me. I am doing my best and will happily provide a write up of a solution in this post in case we figure this out together. It seems more people have the same or a similar problem.


    The situation:

    • I am getting a great tone from my Kemper Kabinet for a Mesa Boogie JP2C profile (and others, but let's use this one)
    • I am recording this profile with an interface (Studio24) into my DAW (StudioOne). I am using the Main Out of the Kemper with a jack into the interface.
    • Current result: Tone sounds very compressed when recorded, without the roundness of a natural tone as I perceive it. Same result over headphones (Beyerdynamic, directly plugged into the Kemper) and when streaming live over Zoom or Skype with the same setup.

    Quick side note: I do know that Kemper profiles represent a mic-against-the-cab tone vs. the amp-in-the-room I am hearing when I am playing it. And yet, many people here seem to achieve a very naturally-sounding tone when recording. So there must be something I can do better.


    Things I have tried so far:

    • Interface: Lowering the input volume of the channel, and lowering the overall volume of the interface. No noticeable effect.
    • Kemper Output volume: Ensuring that -12db (as seen here) was set in the main out (it was), and then lowering the output volume to -20db in addition. No noticeable effect.
    • Direct Mix: Set Direct Mix to 4.5 (as suggested in this thread). It did help making the sound a less compressed and gainy, and was probably the biggest impact of any change I made.
    • Clarity: Set clarity to about 2-3. Small difference.
    • Reverb: Added more reverb (as seen in this great thread with contributions by viabcroce , which did help with the in-the-room feeling, but still kept the harshness in the tone.

    I did get a better recording tone by rolling down the Kemper gain knob a bit / adding even more Direct Mix, BUT: When I played, it sounded really thin and weak to my ears over the cabinet, to the point where it was hard to really get a good feeling and vibe.


    So the big question for me: Is it possible to achieve a great recording tone and also sound great with the same profile over the Kemper Kabinet (or any other cabinet)? I would hope that this is the case, since I want to like my tone over the cab while recording, and at the same time have the recording sound good.


    Here I have included all my settings, which hopefully gives you a good picture in addition to what I have written. I would like to thank all of you in advance for you help and time :)

  • Welcome to the wonderful world of tone chasing! You really have to perceive tone as two separate types; live tone and recorded tone. Live tone is good with amp-in-room sound but suffers at a recorded sound. If you warm up a tone too much to record with then it can sound flat in a mix. If you brighten a tone up for a mix, then you can add harshness and mic fizz.


    Your best tool is to EQ . Don't cut the mids before hand. You can record a pretty flat tone against drums, bass, etc, then use DAW EQ plugins to make it fit. I will layer several EQ plugins (even the same type) so each one has a targeted area. That way I can turn off or on the EQ's for the next profile. Once you get an EQ'd tone close to what you want in DAW, you should save that project for your next mix.


    So basically, I have a good amp-in-room tone to start with leaving the mids flat, and then use the DAW's EQ plugins to fit in the mix. Which is easier said then done.


    Of course, adding effects is it's own can of worms.


    This is the way I approach it. I'm sure some pros on here might have a better perspective.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • Are you bypassing a cab on the Kemper? If so your interface only hears the amp without a cab.

    Thanks - I only have it turned off for the Kemper Kone on page 1 of Outputs called "Monitor Cab Off" and the same on page 3 in Monitor Output EQ since those two are linked. My understanding is that this should not affect the signal sent to the interface, since the interface is connected to Main Out, while the Kemper Kone is connected to Speaker Out? Or am I getting this wrong?


    When I disable Monitor Cab Off, the tone over the Kemper Kabinet sounds horrible (as it should), while the recorded tone does not change.

  • Even pro engineers have to fix harsch guitars in the mix. Some pickups in some guitars will have harsch treble.

    Think for yourself, or others will think for you wihout thinking of you

    Henry David Thoreau

  • Thanks guys; I thought it might be helpful to record a few soundbites with this profile (BG JP2C Ch-2 ST-132-2) into the DAW - here is the link.


    https://on.soundcloud.com/Yg4Xt


    Just to let some chord rings and play a quick lick, to give you all an impression of what it sounds like. Given that I don't know much about production yet, I would love to hear from BayouTexan whether you think it's an EQ thing, or whether it simply a matter of fixing it in the mix, as GearJocke suggested. Or perhaps I am missing something with the cab simulation still, as MuddySludge pointed out.


    Interesting observation: after exporting the mixdown from the DAW into mp3 format, it seems a bit less harsh. Or maybe my ears have gone mad at this point!


    Very grateful for your help, guys!

  • I have mentioned what Hoki Toki said about the cut at 6k in another thread. For me, it can clear up the "fizz" you get from a mic'd cab around the 6-7k range. However, I make that narrow band cut on the master mix itself after apply a low cut around 80hz and a high cut anywhere from 6k to 10k on the guitar track. This is because the "fizz" may correct itself against the other instruments so I wait until I go to the mastering part of the entire mix.


    I would tune your guitar differently. I use two tunings; one for clean which keeps all strings to within 2 cents , and a dirty tuning which I have strings as much as 8 cents apart to counter how hard I hit the strings and where most of my chords will be played for the particular song. And good intonation setup is key.


    I think the example you gave would work best as double tracked. It would give much more body and depth to the guitar tone and would mellow and blend out some of the other harshness. This would allow you to do much less EQing and maybe just do slight mid cut on it in the mix.


    Then you need to play against drums and bass to really know how the tone sounds.


    Here is why trying to define a tone outside the mix is difficult. This Hendrix tone sounds mediocre to me outside the mix. In the mix it is Heaven!


    https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/jimi-hendrix-bob-dylan-isolated-guitar-all-along-the-watchtower/


    Take what I said with a grain of salt because I have only been mixing for a year. LOL.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

    Edited once, last by BayouTexan ().

  • Be sure your Kemper Kabinet is off while you're listening and tracking in the DAW.

    Set your sound to your liking in the monitors. Listen with headphones and see if it's consistent.

    If the play back isn't the same it's in the DAW.

    I tracked in a studio and the play back was not the sound I delivered.

    He said I'll fix it in the Mix. I said I'll do one more take and if the play back isn't the same I'm Gone.

    I walked.

  • I would tune your guitar differently. I use two tunings; one for clean which keeps all strings to within 2 cents , and a dirty tuning which I have strings as much as 8 cents apart to counter how hard I hit the strings and where most of my chords will be played for the particular song. And good intonation setup is key.

    This. Tune the low E a little more flat. The problem is no one learn us how to really tune a guitar and I'm no exception. Tuning all strings to zero and your ready to go. Wrong. And all videos you can watch about tuners on YT. All of them tune so soft and no one tells you to tune as you play. If you play soft, tune soft. If you play hard, tune hard. No matter how well tuned/intonated the guitar is some chords will be less in tune. That's what punch in punch out is for when recording.

    Think for yourself, or others will think for you wihout thinking of you

    Henry David Thoreau

  • This. Tune the low E a little more flat. The problem is no one learn us how to really tune a guitar and I'm no exception. Tuning all strings to zero and your ready to go. Wrong. And all videos you can watch about tuners on YT. All of them tune so soft and no one tells you to tune as you play. If you play soft, tune soft. If you play hard, tune hard. No matter how well tuned/intonated the guitar is some chords will be less in tune. That's what punch in punch out is for when recording.

    Those are some good points, thanks both of you! Will definitely keep that in mind as well.

  • Makes sense. Although, I guess you would need to allow for some discrepancy between monitor tone and headphones, unless you manage to adjust the space setting on the headphones to perfectly mimic your distance to the speakers, correct? Other than that, fully agree, it should be very consistent, and if not then there is something going on with the DAW.

  • Put "Studio EQ" in slot X and adjust "High Cut" to around 6 kHz ....


    Cheers !

    Thanks, I just did that and it sounded a bit better, but still: The tone I am getting sounds hyper compressed...sterile even, if that is the right word for it. I have to still listen to it in a mix, but if I just wanted to record my guitar on its own, I would not like it. I left the Studio EQ settings alone and only set High Cut to 6 kHz...it still sounds very fizzy to me?


    I even cut the amp gain a little bit, so it sounds like this now. Then I set it back to normal and instead turned the Direct Mix to about 4, as a comparison. Both times with Studio EQ engaged.


    It seems that the profile is well done, and it does sound great when I am not recording - I just need to somehow get the tone to be less metallic and rounder. I have sometimes sound someone play to me live over Zoom through a Helix, and his tone is killer in the room and on stream, for example. What am I still missing?

  • If it's not working, move on. There are thousands of free(and commercial profiles)out there. I have five guitars and all of them have different pickups, passive and active. Some profiles sounds dull with one guitar and stellar with another guitar. Profiles that sounds killer solo will never sound good in a band or a mix.

    Think for yourself, or others will think for you wihout thinking of you

    Henry David Thoreau

  • If it's not working, move on. There are thousands of free(and commercial profiles)out there. I have five guitars and all of them have different pickups, passive and active. Some profiles sounds dull with one guitar and stellar with another guitar. Profiles that sounds killer solo will never sound good in a band or a mix.

    I hear you, and I have found quite a few profiles I like, for different guitars and styles. However, it seems to be a general problem I have with recording, where most profiles just sound too harsh / metallic / artificial, especially the ones with higher gains, so I still want to figure out what I am doing wrong.


    Since I am not doing anything in my DAW aside from tracking the raw signal, logically speaking the issue must be either with the Kemper, my interface, or the way those two interact. I have already turned down the output volume on the Kemper for the Main Out, as well as the input gain on the interface, so I don't think the problem is there either. Interface works fine for in-the-room tone, so a technical fault is unlikely.


    Which brings me back to the Kemper. Which parts of the signal chain that we haven't discussed above could make it sound the way it does? Am I really the only one who has this issue across the board?

  • How are you plugging into your audio interface? What are the Output settings on what's connected to it on the Kemper?


    Some DAW software lets you route signals such that your headphones or monitors play back your signal twice, but with a tiny delay that sounds phasey. One is the input signal and the other is the output of the armed recording track with your guitar. You need to mute playback on the input and only listen to the track.

    This only affects when you're playing though - so the recorded guitar still sounds great.

  • When I disable Monitor Cab Off, the tone over the Kemper Kabinet sounds horrible (as it should), while the recorded tone does not change.

    It shouldn't sound horrible ... with "Monitor Cab Off," disabled, Kabinet is acting as FRFR which is being fed with the same signal (including profiled cabinet) as the main recording outputs. So in this scenario, sound from Kabinet and recorded signal should sound very similar at least.

  • The main point here I think is to ensure that your sound is consistent from your KPA to your DAW. Best way to check that is use headphone output from the KPA and check it sounds similar to headphones via your interface. If they sound similar, then it's your profiles. If not, you may need to optimize your set up.


    Personally I would check this first...