A question about selling my Kemper Stage

  • Hi folks

    I'm going to sell my Stage as I can't justify keeping it despite loving it. I have far too much kit and want to buy another bicyle.

    I want to include a bunch of purchased profiles with it as I wont have a Kemper so have no need from them. I have proof of purchase of the profiles and will delete them from my backups.

    I'll remove my York Audio IRs from the Kemper as I will be using them in my GT1000.

    What is the general opinion on this? Should I remove the Profiles as well?

    I'm not sure of the legal/moral situation and don't want to be an asshat.


    John

  • Morally, I think you're fine. You bought something, so you can sell it on once, and you're not keeping any copies. Any stipulations you agreed to when buying the profiles may affect your moral standing in this regard. By this I mean: if you agreed to never sell on the profiles when you bought them, then it may or may not not be legally binding, but you'd still be breaking your word.


    Legally, I would say it depends on the country you're living in and the country of the entity you purchased the profiles from. In the US and EU, there have been laws that uphold the right of the purchaser to sell on goods (including digital). However, l don't know if more recent digital copyright laws have changed this. I'm not a lawyer, by the way.


    If I were you, the only way I'd be worried is if the profiles themselves contained metadata that could identify you as the original purchaser, (e.g. a unique ID). If the new owner (or a subsequent owner) decides to share the profiles with everyone, it might land you in trouble.


    Realistically though, I've seen quite a few Kempers for sale on the second-hand market that were loaded with 3rd party profiles, so you certainly won't be in a unique situation if you choose to do the same, and the chance of you winding up in Folsom prison or selling the family home is probably quite slim.



    https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-1189_ebfj.pdf


    Under the first sale doctrine, when a copyright owner sells a lawfully made copy of its work, it loses the power to restrict the purchaser’s right “to sell or otherwise dispose of . . . that copy"

  • If you sell a computer loaded with software then you can sell it with no problems as long as you don't retain a copy of the software.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

  • Sorry to disagree here - when you "buy" content for the Kemper, you actually buy a license to use it. This license can only be transferred to a new user with the agreement of the vendor - and most profile vendors explicitly forbid this in their terms and conditions.


    So, legally you can't do this without explicit consent from the vendor - you might want to send them an email, but prepare for the answer being "no".


    Of course, you can still just do it and hope no one cares enough to sue...

  • So, legally you can't do this without explicit consent from the vendor - you might want to send them an email, but prepare for the answer being "no".

    As JAC mentioned before, it depends on the country you live in. Here in Germany you can legally sell perpetual licenses you own, even without explicit consent from the vendor or rights holder ... and no matter what the terms and conditions say.

    Of course only once and you have to delete all copies you might have.

  • Yes, here's some text from a relatively recent EU document that seems to confirm that:


    "Under EU law, once a good protected by an intellectual property right has been put lawfully on the market within the European Union (i.e. by the right holder or with his or her consent), the rights conferred by that intellectual property right in relation to the commercial exploitation of the good become exhausted. In that case, the right holder can no longer invoke the intellectual property right in question to prevent the further resale, rental, lending or other forms of commercial exploitation of the good by third parties" https://commission.europa.eu/s…haustion-ip-rights_en.pdf


    That's as clear-cut an explanation as I've been able to find. However, a lot of the material covering this area is murky, with talk about physical copies, and, in the US, whether you've been presented with the license before buying or not. A lot of it has got to do with not just with sellers trying to prevent resellling or counterfeiting, but also buyers demanding support on resold goods.


    Some interesting (but old) links here:

    https://serverfault.com/questi…ftware-licenses-be-resold

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-p…-for-first-sale-doctrine/

  • I'm definitely not a lawyer so am only thinking aloud here!


    It may (or may not) also depend on which countries laws the contract were made under. For example if you are based in the EU and purchase a licence from a US site does that fall under US law or EU law? My limited understanding suggests the contract would fall under US law but I could be wrong.

  • You obey the law of the country you are present in.

    Kemper PowerRack |Kemper Stage| Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune | 1988 Desert Yellow JEM

  • Yes, they could certainly claim that such an example falls under US law. I don't know how much effort the authorities would put into enforcement though. I could be wrong here, but attempts to extradite the offender to face US courts seems to be only for very high-profile, big-money cases (see Megaupload).


    For some cases, the accussed is apprehended when they set foot on US soil, but I don't know if TopJimi or whoever have that kind of sway!

  • https://www.copyrightlaws.com/…ernational-copyright-law/


    Quote


    International copyright law doesn't exist! Each country has its own domestic copyright laws that apply to its own citizens, and also to the use of foreign content when used in one's country. It allows creators and content owners around the world and citizens of many countries to enjoy copyright protection in countries other than their own. Read below for practical tips on addressing international copyright issues that you face.

    Kemper PowerRack |Kemper Stage| Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune | 1988 Desert Yellow JEM

  • Yes, they could certainly claim that such an example falls under US law. I don't know how much effort the authorities would put into enforcement though. I could be wrong here, but attempts to extradite the offender to face US courts seems to be only for very high-profile, big-money cases (see Megaupload).


    For some cases, the accussed is apprehended when they set foot on US soil, but I don't know if TopJimi or whoever have that kind of sway!

    You can't hold someone accountable for something that wasn't illegal in their country. See link above.

    Kemper PowerRack |Kemper Stage| Rivera 4x12 V30 cab | Yamaha DXR10 pair | UA Apollo Twin Duo | Adam A7X | Cubase DAW
    Fender Telecaster 62 re-issue chambered mahogany | Kramer! (1988 or so...) | Gibson Les Paul R7 | Fender Stratocaster HBS-1 Classic Relic Custom Shop | LTD EC-1000 Evertune | 1988 Desert Yellow JEM

  • The reality of this situation is that no one is going to get sued for transferring profiles when selling their KPA. There’s no money in it and a pathetic amount of work involved to accomplish.


    The music industry gave up on DRM and at least with Apple, purchased files have freely changed hands since 2009 with no DRM.


    Is it legal? No.


    You don’t hear anything about pirated music these days, though.


    So we’re down to the honor system.


    If you feel it’s OK according to your personal ethics, knock yourself out. The only people that *might* scream about it have no authority beyond online shame, and you’d have to tell them.

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • Independent of local legislation that does or doesn't override the original intent of the vendor, I'd at least encourage to respect the original intent of the publisher of the profile. Many explicitly state what they want and don't want on their website, e.g. Tone Junkie:


    Quote

    The fine print: All amp brands are trademarked by their respective owners and are in no way affilliated with Tone Junkie. You are purchasing a license to use these profiles for your own personal and/or professional use but profiles are not for resale or any other unlicensed distribution, free or compensated.

    I'd agree with Ruefus regarding the honor system - let's at least honor the will of the original profile maker. It's a small market, and I think these guys deserve every penny coming to them.


    OTOH I could agree that if you're selling your Kemper with the profiles, the profile maker should also be honor-bound to agree to transfer the usage rights. After all, you're not duplicating the licenses, simply transferring them. That should consider "fair use" - in layman's terms...

  • Since the profiler is being sold at a "loss" (I assume this is true), then the paid profiles included are given away as "free". I know of no law in the US that says you are not allowed to give away software you paid for unless you keep a copy of it. Just make sure you have no copies.


    If lawyers did not write down these copyright clauses and terms and someone else did using plain language then our life would be easy.

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

    Edited once, last by BayouTexan ().

  • It may (or may not) also depend on which countries laws the contract were made under. For example if you are based in the EU and purchase a licence from a US site does that fall under US law or EU law? My limited understanding suggests the contract would fall under US law but I could be wrong.


    I am an EU citizen and so EU law applies to me. Good luck enforcing, when for example a US vendor sees it otherwise.


    Microsoft tried hard to prevent from sales of used licenses in Germany. Their attempts were shut down by the courts repeatedly and without fail.

  • I am an EU citizen and so EU law applies to me. Good luck enforcing, when for example a US vendor sees it otherwise.


    Microsoft tried hard to prevent from sales of used licenses in Germany. Their attempts were shut down by the courts repeatedly and without fail.

    As i said, I am a simple layman not a lawyer. I did a tiny bit of contract law for work many many moons ago but that’s all. I live in Scotland and a contract in Scotland can be subject to either Scots Law or English Law depending on where it was signed or which countries jurisdiction was specified in the contract. I don’t doubt that enforcement many be a whole other ball game regardless of the actual legal situation though.

  • Legality aside, if you sell your kemper you should consider unloading it and keeping your profiles and doing. factory reset. You won't be able to add to the selling price. Plus, you may end up coming back to it later and the new buyer may not like your profiles/settings anyways.

  • I can't imagine ever selling my Kemper but if I did I would sell it as is (profiles, performances and personal tweaks) and include a thumb drive with all of my Kemper profiles and stuff and delete same on my PC. I am a computer packrat by nature. I have every firmware update, every Rig Manager update and every backup I have done since I bought mine used in March 2019. The paid profiles were all purchased and paid for. I would consider the licenses transferred to the new owner and call it a day. Is that legal? I don't know and I don't really care. The disclaimers on the paid profilers sites are about as clear as mud. All they need is one more sentence that starts with "If you ever sell your Kemper...". Problem solved.


    If I decided to clear my Kemper before sale I'd simply delete all the profiles and performances and download and install some of the current free profiles available in the downloads section. I would not do a factory reset and force the new owner down that firmware upgrade rabbit hole. The new owner can do that if they so desire. Then they will be here asking for help and being told RTFM.


    As I said, this is all moot since I'll sell my Kemper right after I sell my beloved 1984 Gibson Explorer but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.