Hold Out or Buy?

    I have seen a number of youtube videos about the Tone X. They all seem to suggest that it sounds as good or better than the Kemper, is a whole lot less expensive AND the really big bonus - it lets you use real pedals on a pedalboard. :huh:


    I'm sorry but that is just totally faulty logic, akin to comparing apples to jet engines.


    Before going any further I need to be totally clear. I am not writing this a Kemper fan boy trying to protect the reputation of "my" tribe/religion by attacking others. I happen to think that the Fractal AxeFX range are fantastic devices, same for Line6 Helix, Quad Cortex will probably also be a great unit once they roll out more updates. All of the existing devices are capable of providing excellent results if used well.


    As for Tone X; it sits in a totally different market segment, which I would see as complementary to Kemper, suited to a different type of user, but from what I have heard so far it definitely sounds good. I might even get one at some point as a safety net just incase my Kemper ever fails on me mid gig.


    So why is the logic faulty?


    Sound quality.


    Yes it sounds great, as does the Kemper and the others.


    Does the Kemper always sound perfect straight off the bat? No.


    Does refining and some manual tweaking usually solve this? In my experience yes.


    So the big "game changer" from Tone X's magic AI is that it does the refining and tweaking for us. However, according to one of the videos raving about how good it is, to get the best possible results it can take over 5 hours per profile. I'm pretty sure I could get a result that I was happy with manually in a fraction of that time.


    Maybe all we need to satisfy the AI fraternity is for Kemper to introduce some form of automatic refining. I am pretty sure the current hardware could do that if required.


    Cost.


    Tone X is cheap as chips.


    If I was UA or Strymon, or anyone else selling single amp in a box pedals to go on a pedal board, I would be very worried. Tone X is definitely a game changer in that market.


    However, it only provides 3 switchable rigs and these can only include an amp/cabinet, compressor, noise gate, EQ and Reverb. If that is all you need then once again it is a killer proposition. However, if you need/ want additional overdrives, fuzz, modulation, rotary simulator, harmoniser, delay etc and the ability to have multiple "performances" for different songs in a set list then you need a pedal board too.


    I used to have a pedalboard. I actually still have it in a container but have plugged it in less than 5 times since I got the Kemper 5 years ago. I hate pedal boards for several reasons including, cost, weight, size, lack of flexibility, problems with cables, noise, hum, power, need for power and audio cables at the front of stage etc etc which can appear at any time and can be a nightmare to track down and solve.





    But even if I assume that I did like a pedal board in principle what about the cost?


    I looked out photos of my old pedal board to save me looking for it in the depths of the container. I then tried to price each item on it although I substituted the cheaper Decimator G String pedal for my actual rack mounted Pro Rack G for a fairer comparison. I arrived at a total cost of £3,937 PLUS cables and connectors. There are nearly 50 Witchcraft 226 jacks on it a several meters of Vann Dame cable. The cost of cables and connectors would add >£300 plus all the time involved soldering everything and assembling the system. I haven't included the cost of expression pedals as these would be required with the Kemper too so excluding them simply cancels out.


    Therefore, to build a rig round the Tone X and my pedal board would cost c. £4,600. PLUS a power amp and cabinet(s) or a powered monitor. I have excluded these as I am assuming I would use the same amplification for Tone X or Kemper so again it cancels out.


    This set up weighed about 10 times as much as my Kemper (maybe more) and takes up way more room in the car and on stage AND is less flexible. That doesn't sound appealing to me. "but look, with pedals I can bend down and twiddle the knobs and give myself back ache. Clearly that's way better than an all in one solution like Kemper, Helix or Fractal" :D


    A Kemper Non Powered Head and Remote would cost £1,935.51 including VAT a Stage would cost just £1,445.99 inc VAT. Either would be significantly more portable and more flexible than my old pedalboard setup at a fraction of the cost.


    If we are comparing just an amp modelling solution then of course the Tone X is a brilliant deal particularly when you get a full version of Amplitude thrown in for free. But if you want a total rig for gigging I'm still struggling to see how it is a better option than any of the current systems.


    Where I think IK Multimedia have played an absolute blinder is, they have focused on a specific market segment and have targeted it with a high quality well thought out solution to meet specific needs. I am sure they will sell bucket loads of them. Will I be selling my Kemper? Not a chance.


    The interesting thing to keep an eye on is whether IK see Tone X as it stands as a finished product or merely the foot in the door to be followed with bigger brothers and sisters that are an all in one replacement for the current major players. Only time will tell.


    TLDNR:


    I think Tone X looks really interesting for a certain situation.


    I think the Kemper and others look amazing for different situations.


    But neither is a direct replacement for the other.

    Quote from MistaGuitah

    "Not lacking in features but more affordable." - that sounds like you want them to give you the same thing, but charge less.


    No, I never said that I expect Kemper to offer the same thing cheaper. I don't know where you got that, but anyone can look at the Fractal FM3 vs Axe FX III and see a perfect example of I'm talking about.

    Lacking in features means some features would be missing or removed. Your statement means you want nothing missing or removed, but at a cheaper, or more affordable, price. Based on the meaning of your words, I know exactly where Ruefus got 'that'.

    Quote from MistaGuitah

    I perceive you're just reacting like a naysayer wanting to disagree with things rather than someone thoughtful and considerate of what was actually said. Asking questions, seeking clarification, being accurate and not rewording people's statements with skewed thoughts are all marks of rational, intelligent discussion. If you can converse on that level then you're welcome to try again.

    I just had it out on another post with him, He likes being difficult.

    But all the noise about whats right or whats wrong does not matter the fundamental thing is, an all I care about, the tone X profiles better. Sounds open an uncompressed. All kemper has to do is clean up the algorithim an this discusions over for me. The kemper albiet years old is a far better unit than the rest. If they get the profiling right then its got an other 10 years to be a classic.

    So this is how trying to save money in music goes... You buy your first guitar from Amazon. After learning some stuff you realize the guitar sucks so you spring for a better guitar -- like a MiM Fender. Then you buy your first pedal. It's a Donner Distortion and you realize it sucks. Then you spring for a genuine TubeScreamer like the pros use. Then you buy your first interface from Amazon. After learning you need two inputs for stereo instead of just one you realize it sucks. Then you buy a better one from Sweetwater like the pros use. And...


    I could go on but the point is. Get the best now instead of wasting money trying to get close to the best. In the end, you will come out spending less. After buying one amp, I wanted more amps. Kemper gave me all that for less. I have Zero need to buy another amp again. Charvel guitars almost did the same for me. ;)

    Larry Mar @ Lonegun Studios. Neither one famous yet.

    Like 4
    Quote from lbieber

    Lacking in features means some features would be missing or removed. Your statement means you want nothing missing or removed, but at a cheaper, or more affordable, price. Based on the meaning of your words, I know exactly where Ruefus got 'that'.

    FEATURE

    noun

    /ˈfiː.tʃər/

    feature (QUALITY) - a typical quality or an important part of something.


    Perhaps you should look up the term. Guitar input, FX loop, power switch, headphone jack, etc., are all 'features.' Anyone using common-sense can figure out that it means basic things and not leaving out something essential. I'm bored now so I'll leave you to ponder this.

    Quote from goldensheaf

    I just had it out on another post with him, He likes being difficult.

    Don't pretend you know me at all. If correcting all of your inaccuracies and confronting the nature of your post is what you consider "being difficult" then perhaps you should be more thoughtful and precise in the future.

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    I have seen a number of youtube videos about the Tone X. They all seem to suggest that it sounds as good or better than the Kemper, is a whole lot less expensive AND the really big bonus - it lets you use real pedals on a pedalboard. :huh:


    I'm sorry but that is just totally faulty logic, akin to comparing apples to jet engines.


    Before going any further I need to be totally clear. I am not writing this a Kemper fan boy trying to protect the reputation of "my" tribe/religion by attacking others. I happen to think that the Fractal AxeFX range are fantastic devices, same for Line6 Helix, Quad Cortex will probably also be a great unit once they roll out more updates. All of the existing devices are capable of providing excellent results if used well.

    I agree because I own a Fractal FM3 and think it's better than the other modelers, but of all the modeling/profiling devices I've used, Kemper is my favorite. Now, I'm not going to say that would equate to it sounding or being better but it is my preference. I really regret selling mine because the price has jumped up since so there are some things to consider. I don't have any criticisms of the Kemper, however, there is a small limitation that I can live with. The gain, EQs, and other parameters seem to sound best only within a narrow range of tweaking or slight twist of the dial. I find that any more than subtle tweaks don't sound as good as leaving the profile just like it was modeled. Like I said though, it's a very small thing that I can live with. Maybe some people won't agree but that's my opinion. Anyway, in the end, I think I'll just get another Kemper and start enjoying it.


    By the way, we use a lot of the same gear. My pedalboard is similar but I usually have my Fulldrive next to 2 other overdrive pedals. I still have my Mark 25 but just let go of my 2011 Dual Rect.

    Equivocation

    Hang on, you said something about someone, I agree with you, an now you attack me? god some wierdos here

    Quote from MistaGuitah

    By the way, we use a lot of the same gear. My pedalboard is similar but I usually have my Fulldrive next to 2 other overdrive pedals. I still have my Mark 25 but just let go of my 2011 Dual Rect.

    mine was in the signal path next to the other overdrives but that was the best place I could put it on the board for space and access to the additional boost switch.

    Quote from MistaGuitah

    I'm on the fence about buying a Kemper because prices have skyrocketed to boutique amp level. I don't want to make such a big investment only to find out they're going to release a new profiler a year or two from now. Anyone know what the deal with Kemper technology is and have they said anything about a new model? Is anyone else holding out? This is kind of a tough decision because if prices go up even more, I won't be able to afford one.

    Going back to your original question....its really difficult to advise but this is how I see it:

    1) The current KPA is 10+ years old, with very few physical changes made in that time

    2) It still stands up well to the competition, with regular software changes

    3) The eco system is sorted to make it a pro user choice

    4) It is expensive, but no more expensive than any other high end gear

    5) Its an all in one solution - lighter, more practical than non digital solutions - I like to included power amp in the Rack/head or powered versions of the dedicated kabinet. No other solution has this.

    6) No one knows if a new product will be released tomorrow or never. It is pure speculation. Given Kemper's history/approach, we also won't know in advance so don't expect any statements ( its always counter productive anyway)

    7) The risk that worry's you is relevant to any new tech - its risker with the KPA because of its age but conversely less risky....because of its age ( i.e. not changing every year)

    8) If they released a KPA 2 tomorrow, I would buy one, purely for "new toy" reasons, rather than because its missing anything. So the "old KPA will still be good, solid and do everything you bought it for. Its value will be impacted no doubt but it won't be a waste if you use it.


    You probably know all of this...


    So, Is it worth the money - . I justify it this way, I have NEVER considered any other amp since I've had it. For me, its paid me back multiple times.


    Is it the best digital solution on the market - unsurprisingly on a Kemper forum, 99% will say yes. The reality is the Axe, Helix, Quad are all really good but with their own strengths and weaknesses - so much so, my view is that set up is the key factor.


    If it was me starting again, I would not hesitate, I'd buy another tomorrow.

    this.

    A brace of Suhrs, a Charvel, a toaster, an Apollo twin, a Mac, and a DXR10

    Like 1

    There is much to agree with here, and I appreciate the sincerity of your evaluation. The perspective I'm describing is primarily from tube amp guy's perspective. I still find tube amps superior and most satisfying to hear and play so I'm not comfortable just owning modeling amps. It's understandable how one could build their entire rigs on a Kemper or two, or some combination of modelers thereof. That's something I came very close to doing for the past 2 years with my Kemper because I used it most of the time with only 1 Bogner tube amp as backup. Now I have 3 tube amps, a Fractal FM3, and looking to add a Kemper just to be able to take my tube amps with me in one box.


    I know the concerns I have are valid and that I'm not the only one to express them. However, but if anything is to be said for Kemper, it would be that they've been very consistent from the beginning as far as I know. That says a lot, yet the underlying question is whether I can bank on that. Nevertheless, I've already decided to try and acquire another Kemper - especially because I have some outstanding profiles I made of previous amps I owned. It seems worth the risk, and even if Kemper came out with something new, it would appear that they won't abandon users abruptly as many other companies do these days.

    Quote from MistaGuitah

    There is much to agree with here, and I appreciate the sincerity of your evaluation. The perspective I'm describing is primarily from tube amp guy's perspective. I still find tube amps superior and most satisfying to hear and play so I'm not comfortable just owning modeling amps. It's understandable how one could build their entire rigs on a Kemper or two, or some combination of modelers thereof. That's something I came very close to doing for the past 2 years with my Kemper because I used it most of the time with only 1 Bogner tube amp as backup. Now I have 3 tube amps, a Fractal FM3, and looking to add a Kemper just to be able to take my tube amps with me in one box.


    I know the concerns I have are valid and that I'm not the only one to express them. However, but if anything is to be said for Kemper, it would be that they've been very consistent from the beginning as far as I know. That says a lot, yet the underlying question is whether I can bank on that. Nevertheless, I've already decided to try and acquire another Kemper - especially because I have some outstanding profiles I made of previous amps I owned. It seems worth the risk, and even if Kemper came out with something new, it would appear that they won't abandon users abruptly as many other companies do these days.

    No worries dude hope it helped in some way.


    Of course most of us are tube guys and many still own them so I get where you are coming from.


    However, I think what the KPA has taught me is that whilst having a tube amp thumping out is a beautiful thing:


    1) The KPA gets me at least 95% there

    2) Whilst the monitor sound might be better, the resultant sound FOH is better with the KPA - which in my book I prefer. If its about inspiring confidence in your playing, I prefer to know that the audience hears the best sound and my sound is the compromise, rather than the other way round and worrying if the audience can hear the amazing tone I'm hearing ( of course many variables at play here and its not as binary as that..)

    3) I'll take the convenience ANY day over a tube amp. My rack, remote and Kabinet are positively featherlight in comparison to a guitar cab, valve amp and pedal board.

    4) Consistancy is a more beautiful thing

    5) Flexibility is even more beautiful!

    Quote from BayouTexan

    I could go on but the point is. Get the best now instead of wasting money trying to get close to the best. In the end, you will come out spending less.

    So true. Since I was a kid all I wanted was a black Les Paul standard. But I am not good on guitar so I did not want to spend $2500.


    PRS singlecut SE goes on sale for $490 so I get one.

    Black Gibson Les Paul Studio goes on sale $700 so I get one. Change a pickup and some hardware $100.

    Gibson Honey Les Paul Traditional goes on sale so I get one $1700. Change out pickups for $100.


    Am I done.... No of course not. I still DONT have a black Les Paul.


    Finally get a black Epiphone Les Paul for $400 on sale. Put Les Paul Trad pickups in it.


    Almost $3500 in and I still dont have the guitar I wanted at the start. Someday.... someday...some....


    PRS - Best quality guitar and funnest to play. Play it 40% of the time.

    Les Paul Studio - Best sounding guitar for solos. Thick soaring leads.

    Les Paul Trad - Best overall sounding guitar. Most expensive and worst quality.

    Epi Les Paul - Guitar I play 60% of the time.


    When I bought my Ibanez, I went into the store and said "put me by a 4x12 stack and keep bringing me guitars until I tell you to stop". Love that guitar.