Lag when switching between rigs (Tech21 MIDI Moose)

    Ok, I've just tried switching from a JC120 to a Soldano and back...no lag.
    A stupid question: do you guys have volume or wha engaged? If yes please try to remove them and check if the lag is still there. If we find the root cause Support can solve it.....

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


    Quote from guitarnet70

    Ok, I've just tried switching from a JC120 to a Soldano and back...no lag.
    A stupid question: do you guys have volume or wha engaged? If yes please try to remove them and check if the lag is still there. If we find the root cause Support can solve it.....


    Cheers. I'll record a clip when I get the Kemper back into the studio, it's currently at our rehearsal space, so you guys can hear what it sounds like.

    Every processor has some kind of "patch A to patch B" transition logic. Some mute briefly, some make a near instantaneous change. But, the only way to experience an issue with any of these methods is to be actually playing (or sustaining notes) across the change.


    Is that what you are doing when you hear this?


    My guess is most people don't ever need do that, especially when the sounds differ in gain amounts. So, most people would never experience an issue with a fraction of a second mute/morph.


    From a musical arrangement perspective, most patch changes would happen right before the beginning of a measure/right before playing a different sounding part. If a transition is 500ms long, that would equate to one quarter note at 120bpm (uptempo dance beat). If it is closer to 250ms, it is closer to an eighth note at 120bpm.


    It can't be done with a conventional multiple amp rig, either, unless the signal is split to constantly feed multiple amplifiers, and each one has a completely separate effects chain. If you do it with two "real" amps and a simple A/B switch, you'll hear a "click" in the middle of your sustaining note, the gain staging difference between clean and dirty will cause a notable volume and tone change, and, any shared reverb and delay would sustain the "click" and make other strange artifacts from "spill over" noises.

    My Eleven Rack, which costs 1/4 of the price of the KPA, does instant patch changes. No lag whatsoever. Instant means switching to a new patch without missing the attack on the first note of a solo, for instance. IMHO BTW, the first note is also the most important more often than not, especially if you're not playing a million notes per second.


    On to real amps, I own a JMP1 MIDI preamp and a Boogie Triaxis, both are selected through a switching system that I've built myself and then into a TC G-Major2. I have no lag problems with that rig either.


    And not that it's in the same league, but it's probably worth noting that my poor Line6 HD500 also has no lag when switching patches at 1/6th the price of the KPA.


    What I am beginning to realize is that most users don't mind having to wait a 1/2 second before being able to hear the entire attack of a note. Until proven to the contrary, my conclusion for now is that the lag exists for *everyone*, but for some obscure reason many users choose to look the other way. I will not. For what I've paid for the KPA, I think it's more than reasonable to expect that it changes patches quickly and flawlessly, so Kemper team, please fix it.

    I have been all the same places as most of you, Triaxis JMP1 and all Line 6 floor board last HD500, and now one have had any issue with midi program change. no lag or drop in sound before now.
    I have major volume drop when change with midi,and I always miss the first note off a solo be curse off it. major bummer.


    Please have it fixed soon.

    I did a quick test to measure the time it takes for the Kemper to change the sound after a MIDI program change message is sent. I measured about 150 ms. That's not 0 but it's quite a bit less than half a second. What I did was send a program change from Logic to the Kemper and recorded the audio from the Kemper. I played a long note to and switched between a quiet clean patch and a loud distorted one so I could clearly see the difference. Here are a couple of screen shots that show what I saw. the first picture the bottom track has 2 squares in it that represent the program change messages. The top track is the output of the Kemper.


    Waveform


    Timing


    The timing is in SMPTE units - hh:mm:ss ff:bb, where ff is frames (in this case 25 frames per second) and bb is SMPTE bits (80 bits per frame). You can see that the time between the PC message being sent and the change in sound is at most 3 frames and 60 bits. That is less than 4/25ths of a second, about 150 ms.


    This seems like it may be in the range where it just isn't an issue for some people but is a problem for others. I haven't found it to be a problem in my music. Would someone who does notice a lag take some measurements to see if what they are experiencing is different or if it's just that 150ms is too much for their use?


    Brian

    I haven't measured the exact time it takes for a patch change via MIDI so I'll take your word for it, that means it's less than I thought it was but still too high for live use IMO. Consider that the main competitor of the KPA does a patch change in 20-25 ms with delay spillover off and 25-30 ms with delay spillover on. I'm not asking that these figures be matched, but taking 5 times as much is a lot to take, patch switching times should be improved ASAP IMO, I'm sincerely hoping that Performance Mode will take care of that.

    I have owned 3 Kempers so far. 2 were replacements. Both of the previous were white, the new one is black. With the previous 2 I had no lag whatsoever. Im using a Rocktron Midi Raider. However with the new black Kemper I have alot of lag. I do have a volume pedal engaged but I have always had one engaged. I will try to it unhooked next Sunday to see if the issue changes. Its a very noticeable lag though. I didnt notice it until 2 weeks ago, because I usually play mostly one patch in a live setting at church. But when I did change it mid song I thought something was very wrong. After the set I discovered the lag. Did a reset but that did not resolve it. Hopefully something good will come from this discussion. Deny keep us posted please.

    Quote from jeff5x0

    I have owned 3 Kempers so far. 2 were replacements. Both of the previous were white, the new one is black. With the previous 2 I had no lag whatsoever. Im using a Rocktron Midi Raider. However with the new black Kemper I have alot of lag. I do have a volume pedal engaged but I have always had one engaged. I will try to it unhooked next Sunday to see if the issue changes. Its a very noticeable lag though. I didnt notice it until 2 weeks ago, because I usually play mostly one patch in a live setting at church. But when I did change it mid song I thought something was very wrong. After the set I discovered the lag. Did a reset but that did not resolve it. Hopefully something good will come from this discussion. Deny keep us posted please.

    That's funny!! Mine is also black and I am having that switching lag! Anyone else with a black unit experiencing the lag? Haha.


    Tried to call KEMPER today but no luck due to the christmas holidays. I will call them ASAP in the new year and if it has to be bring them my lagging amp so they can check for possible errors.

    Quote from net99

    Hi,
    I'm using a FCB1010/UNO 1.03 and KPA with firmware 1.5.4 and have no delay issues.
    My KPA is the white version and I bought it 2012-03-01.
    Does this midilag problem have anything to do with newer version of KPA ???
    Something changed in the production ???
    Just a thought

    Maybe my thoughts are not so bad !!!

    My KPA is the white version and I bought it 2012-03-01.
    Does this midilag problem have anything to do with newer version of KPA ???

    Here's my update: according to Kemper Support, the MIDI switching lag is "under 100 ms", which I suppose really means "around 100 ms". I'm now curious to measure it myself with all the midi controllers I own, (2 or 3) and also using a computer. I'm not making any promises, it's a reasonable amount of work to set things up and I'm not sure when or if I'll be able to get around doing it.

    This is what i found out today (I also posted this in another thread about the switching lag) :


    Some short news :




    Just for fun I switched the cab on my clean profile to the same cab I am
    using with my high gain profile and it felt like the switching lag was
    reduced to a 'size' where i could switch the rigs almost flawlessly with
    a little practice. Great so far.




    But :




    After that I programmed a midi track in REAPER to change the KPAs rigs
    for my bands' live-setup (just switching from high gain to clean and
    back) and after playing along to that backing track while recording the
    KPAs output i found out that the lag seems to be inconsistent ranging
    from around 100 ms (which is what Kemper told me is somewhat normal and
    what was taking into consideration by me when programming the above
    mentioned Midi track) to way more. 8|




    Conclusion : I will be bringing back my KPA to the store where i bought
    it and check one of the KPAs they have in stock with a BEHRINGER
    Floorboard and my NOBELS board to see if the lag is also apparent in the
    other units. Hopefully its not and i can drive home with a fully
    working amp. We'll see...

    Ok, another update here... I've been suspecting that it isn't a MIDI error, and sure enough, today I tried changing between rigs using the browse buttons on the front panel of the KPA. And the changes are not instantaneous while using the front panel either. It might have to do with how many stomps/effects are enabled for every patch, because some patches seem to change faster than others, but I didn't have time to investigate that today(or well, I forgot). Performance Mode will hopefully improve this aspect when it's made available. Right now the lag is annoying the hell out of me. I still love the KPA, and I'll probably still use it live because it's easier than having to change 2-3 pedals per rig change. But it's not ideal.

    I started this thread in regards to lag with the behringer. Still have lag issues, no one from the top has bothered with any answers, which makes me think they have no answers and are hoping I stop asking about it. Brand new, latest firmware, latest uno chip. Stock rigs. Garage band with a foot controller is probably more consistent and trouble free than this. Not to mention a hell of a lot cheaper. How did Kemper miss this?? Maybe Axe is the way to go really. Id be stoked to see this resolved asap, cos this rig is not stage ready.

    Quote from Chungtown

    I started this thread in regards to lag with the behringer. Still have lag issues, no one from the top has bothered with any answers, which makes me think they have no answers and are hoping I stop asking about it. Brand new, latest firmware, latest uno chip. Stock rigs. Garage band with a foot controller is probably more consistent and trouble free than this. Not to mention a hell of a lot cheaper. How did Kemper miss this?? Maybe Axe is the way to go really. Id be stoked to see this resolved asap, cos this rig is not stage ready.


    If you want someone "from the top" to answer you, you should open a ticket.

    +1, log a ticket with support and you'll get an answer from them. Usually they are quite quick

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


    Interesting. I also have the black version of the Kemper. And yes, I switch rigs while playing something. I didn't write the songs and I think it's annoying, but I have to play e.g. a clean lick and then immediately be able to switch to a distorted sound without missing a quarter note.. which was possible with my old setup (EVH 5150 + stomp pedals). If this lag is there for everyone and they just don't hear it or don't mind it, the MIDI switching of the Kemper is a huge disappointment for me.

    Quote from jipchen

    Interesting. I also have the black version of the Kemper. And yes, I switch rigs while playing something. I didn't write the songs and I think it's annoying, but I have to play e.g. a clean lick and then immediately be able to switch to a distorted sound without missing a quarter note.. which was possible with my old setup (EVH 5150 + stomp pedals). If this lag is there for everyone and they just don't hear it or don't mind it, the MIDI switching of the Kemper is a huge disappointment for me.

    Hey.


    Ah, also a black one like mine! ;) On monday i will be in colognes MUSICSTORE checking out two other KPAs with a stock BEHRINGER board and hopefully this will bring it! ;)

    Hi,


    I have been experiencing these terrible latency issues with my KPA as well. First i used the Behringer FCB, now I use a Rocktron Midimate. It´s a black one, too... :huh: