Lag when switching between rigs (Tech21 MIDI Moose)

  • I'd like to know how it is possible that some FC have a lag while others don't.
    And it's pretty strange that some people with the same FC have this issue and other don't (think to the FCB1010).


    By the way, up to now i have used some pretty simple FC and never had this problem, i'll take a look on how the HD500 will work.

  • There is no difference between various MIDI controllers.
    I rather think that this is the same phenomenon as the 1.6 sound changing ghost pain.
    Some guys are more sensitive, some are more picky and others need their gear only for complaining.

  • others need their gear only for complaining.

    I feel somewhat offended with the above and here is my response.


    You haven't got a clue.


    Next time bring something factual and constructive to the thread. If you're a blind & deaf fanboi post elsewhere thanks.


    When changing presets with high gain the ramp up is much more noticeable than presets with little or no OD gain (clean)


    FTR: Axe FX changes without the ramp up or lag, I know because I owned and used one live many times.


    Soldano SLO 100, Bogner 101A, 101B & 100B XTC, Elmwood M60 & M90, Bogner Shiva, Bogner Goldfinger, Friedman BE100, Marshall JVM401H change with no lag or ramp up times in comparison to the KPA and I know this because I (still) own these amps and have used them live extensively.
    (BTW: Some of these amps use LDRs and some use relays to switch channels)


    And for anybody else in doubt - using an Uno equipped Behringer FCB and an RJM Mastermind with different length midi cables has the same problem with the KPA.


    I believe I own and have used enough equipment and gigged live enough to know there is a problem.


    Behringer FCB1010 lag between switching rigs


    If others and myself are so wrong where is CK to prove the issue imaginative.


    What is performance mode and what does it exactly in detail deliver to the live player? Why is it so hard to get fully detailed answers?

  • Why is it so hard to get fully detailed answers?

    Because this feature has not been released yet? 'Till now Kemper has never disclosed anything prior to release, rightly so, IMO.


    I hear you about the switching lag (though I'm not experiencing it, but honestly I rarely change Rig middle of a song) and it has been discussed enough to be sure that Mothership knows about it.

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


  • I'll record some clips with my FCB tonight, I find it rather bizarre some folks have taken this as such a critical issue and not done so yet. I do experience a ramp when moving from clean to dirt, but its literally faster than I can get my foot off the switch. I would in no way describe this as latency which is defined essentially as a delay. There is absolutely no delay in switching. When I engage a switch, the unit responds immediately. A similar ramping method is employed in many analog effects, though with a much shorter ramp time, in order to hide the audible "pop" which is inherent to a true bypass design. Its perfectly acceptable to me, though of course not ideal...

  • We are not just bitching to bitch.. There is a SERIOUS switching lag going on with my unit. As I have said a couple times before, I had NO LAG switching presets via midi pedal when I first bought the KPA. I stayed on FW 1.09 up until about 6 weeks ago when I "upgraded" to 1.54. It seems like that is when it started for me. But I cannot be sure. I upgraded, but did not have my midi pedal connected to the unit until my next gig. It just started happening out of the blue for me. But it's really bad to try to deal with. It's not a fade in fade out thing when switching, it's an enormous lag.


    If I had the time I would attempt to make a video to show how bad it was.


    You people who are throwing shots at us saying it's our imagination should just stay the hell out of the thread if you cannot say anything worthwhile. This problem sucks bad. Or am I just imagining it?

    X(

  • There is no difference between various MIDI controllers.
    I rather think that this is the same phenomenon as the 1.6 sound changing ghost pain.
    Some guys are more sensitive, some are more picky and others need their gear only for complaining.


    I'm disturbed by the "I don't switch rigs, use midi, or whatever other reason so it must not be a problem" attitude. The KPA has real and significant lag, measured, verified. Its not helpfull to say "its instantaneous". What the hell does that mean? NOTHING is instantaneous. If a user's requirements are satisfied by a 300ms delay when switching rigs between songs, they should go play guitar. For the rest of us, its too slow.


    bd

  • This issue exists for me as well. But I never had it with my other 2 white KPAs. Just my new black one. Not at all saying that has anything to do with it. Dont know if it was because of firmware upgrade or what. But it is a pain to deal with. Im using Rocktron Midi Raider here. For me, its happening changing from a clean profile to a distorted one.

    Hi Jeff!

  • Alrighty folks! I don't believe I've hooked up my midi controller since upgrading to 1.6 beta and dang, the ramp I used to experience is gone! I feel really sorry for you guys having issues, but here's a sample randomly switching between 6 rigs. 3 are based on the same profile, another shares the cab as the first 3, the last 2 I completely randomly selected (one's volume is much higher than the rest). I experience no latency at all, rig switches faster than I can get my foot off the switch. My KPA is white, program assignments were 1-7 though I never engaged patch 4 for some reason. Patches switched using a FCB1010, patches 6 and 7 were on a different bank even. Just no lag. So the issue isn't with my KPA, nor the FCB, nor MIDI in general (versus a dediated controller as some have supposed)...


    https://docs.google.com/file/d…0RGpTYjQ/edit?usp=sharing


    EDIT: Just realized without a reference, the clip makes no sense. D'oh!!! I guess my word will have to do for now. Well, it does show the ramp which used to happen with switching in 1.5 is gone. Anyway, again so sorry for those having issues, but its clearly not an issue with all KPAs nor the FCB1010. Does every one with problems perhaps have a black unit? Perhaps theres a hardware d Ifference...

  • Alrighty folks! I don't believe I've hooked up my midi controller since upgrading to 1.6 beta and dang, the ramp I used to experience is gone! I feel really sorry for you guys having issues, but here's a sample randomly switching between 6 rigs. 3 are based on the same profile, another shares the cab as the first 3, the last 2 I completely randomly selected (one's volume is much higher than the rest). I experience no latency at all, rig switches faster than I can get my foot off the switch. My KPA is white, program assignments were 1-7 though I never engaged patch 4 for some reason. Patches switched using a FCB1010, patches 6 and 7 were on a different bank even. Just no lag. So the issue isn't with my KPA, nor the FCB, nor MIDI in general (versus a dediated controller as some have supposed)...


    https://docs.google.com/file/d…0RGpTYjQ/edit?usp=sharing


    EDIT: Just realized without a reference, the clip makes no sense. D'oh!!! I guess my word will have to do for now. Well, it does show the ramp which used to happen with switching in 1.5 is gone. Anyway, again so sorry for those having issues, but its clearly not an issue with all KPAs nor the FCB1010. Does every one with problems perhaps have a black unit? Perhaps theres a hardware d Ifference...

    Thanks for sharing that Will. I cant imagine there is a hardware difference between the two. If I recall the back of the white KPA is a tad different then the black one. But I dont think that has anything related to hardware. Course Ive been wrong several times :D Im not as angry about the situation as others are. I just assume it will eventually get worked out. Of course Im not doing 4 sets of 10 plus songs every weekend either. So I empathize with those that are having this issue as well.

  • How many of you experiencing the issue who have posted in this thread or others have an active ticket with support? What was their response?

    I did open a support ticket, and was told that "you can quote, that according to KEMPER the MIDI switch time is below 100ms". I haven't measured it myself, but it's certainly longer than I'd like it to be.


    Anyway let's suppose that it's in fact 100ms.


    From the Axe FX FAQ: "Preset switching time is around 20-25 ms with delay spillover off. With delay spillover on, it's around 25-30 ms."


    One might argue that the Axe FX is a more expensive device, then let us consider the Eleven Rack: [Per Andrew at Digidesign, "...if you assign a Footswitch to change Rigs, the Rig change time is right around 60ms...".]


    Couldn't find the original post at the Avid forums, but here's a thread about it at TGP:
    http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=672771#3


    BTW I own an Eleven Rack and find 60ms perfectly acceptable.


    Now just to provide a lower end device for comparison purposes, according to a user measurement from the POD HD500 its switching delay is around 50ms: "I made a little over-estimation with my "few hundred milliseconds" - I
    have measured it by looking at the waveform and it is about 50ms."


    http://line6.com/support/message/382241#382241


    IMHO this problem needs to be addressed ASAP.


  • Well, I sure hope CK and crew can help you boys out as the unit is perfectly responsive to me which means it is not a universal bug but either an issue with certain units or the way in which they are being used.

  • I was in contact with the support, because i experienced lags of up to ~450ms. I sent them this video of me switching channels as evidence


    https://www.dropbox.com/s/zjd02ur3c6h8vf3/VID_20140423_172150.mp4



    (to get to the 450ms, i looked at the waveform to get the time from hearing the "click" of the button and the changing in the sound)
    I sent a backup of my profile to the support and they recorded the same as i did in my video. Their lags were at most 200ms long, most of them much shorter.


    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ah0ybv3vvz4hk9z/IMG_2610.MOV


    Nevertheless (after they told me to init the flash which didnt change anything) they answered, that a hardware-defect could be rouled out and that i have to wait until they provide a firmware update which tackles performance-mode-switches.


    :( it's really annoying when switching to a louder channel live