Hm, don't like the sound from FW 1.6 (Edit Fixed now)


  • I was half joking half serious in my "I'm not deaf" post.


    I mean, despite of all the tests, all the oppinions and all CK statements, I felt almost instantly there was a lost of sound/feeling/response call-it-what-you-want when I updated to 1.6, and I didn't know anything about this post, I was even thinking there was a problem with my guitar, or cable, or poweramp.Then, I saw this post.


    I don't know what it is, I hate blind test, comparations, ozone, etc etc, and I also hate accepting any statement without checking it by myself.That's why I had to tried the Kemper after being an Axe lover sin the first day (I even had the first official Axe in Spain when no one even knew about it).I bought it, played side to side with the Axe for one week, and no matter what Cliff, the Axe forum or anyone wrote or said.Kemper was way best to my ears.And being loyal to that philosophy, I found something that I don't like in 1.6.And you could prove that they sound exactly the same, but I can't fight what my ears and brain tells me when I play.Maybe is just a problem of mine (don't think so after seeing how many traffic has this thread) but I'd really like the Kemper team to accept that feeling and try to solve it, not just demostrate or prove that what I hear is not "correct".My experience is more playing thru a poweramp and two 4x12, and the feeling when playing is different, also is the response and dynamic.I don't mind about curves, reamping, firmwares or whatever.


    I hear what I hear, and I'm not deaf.

    Proud Kemper+Axe FX II user.....yes, you can hook'em together, they WON'T explode.

  • Hi!


    I did a new test with Morgan AC20 yesterday reamping through spdif without any stomp or effect. There where differences of almost 1dB above 5kHz when sending a 440 Hz and 800 Hz signal but, in a blind test, I couldn't identify any differences between the two versions using monitors, good hifi equipment or good headphones with good D/A conversion and dedicated amp.


    I'll try it again today but using one of Andy's profiles without switching off the post-eq he uses to adjust the output level of the profile and a third one with one of my profiles (I use the cab volume to adjust the output level).


    Maybe the differences some of us hear are not in the profiles but in the stomp and effects section. Maybe our brain is cheating us.


    Mr. Kemper, thank you very much for your time and setting up a blind test for us. Now I'm convinced that I cannot identify differences in a dry profile and don't need to pass your test.


    Saludos!
    Paco

  • Don't take me wrong :) . I just said that because I have some experience with blind tests and in one case that was the main purpose of it (actually someone just mentioned before that particular test ;)). Not saying that is your intention obviously.


    Aside from that, based on my experience some devs opt to go the way so they can demonstrate that they are right (because they are sure they are) and the users are wrong. If that's the approach it is actually quite easy to get the users confused so they are not sure anymore if what they are checking is A or it is B. In other words if the intention is to find if both versions really have differences it's ok with me since that's what I have been trying to help with but if the intention is to find out if we can really tell the differences then I have a good idea of what the result can be inconclusive.


    Btw, the poll that some created about it says that 59% (38 out 64 users so far) hear differences. :P


    MatH,


    I have created the Profiler with a scientific approach. It would not have been possible another way.
    Everybody who felt that the 1.60 sounded differently after updating, would be able to tell the difference, if it exists.
    Making tests would also imply a blind test. And yes, blind tests could confuse the listeners. But this is the only scientific approach to find out the truth.


    To Man_With_Gas: Those tests would have addressed the "The sense of immediacy and toothiness", of course. What did you think?


    But I can see that you guys feel uncomfortable with this approach. Sure you could get confused, and yes, one clear result could be, that you are wrong.
    The other clear result could be that we are wrong, which would guide us to nail down a possible solution in further tests.


    Failure is an option for me, but obviously not for you.


    Test is canceled.

  • Just listening/hearing compared to playing/feeling/hearing are different things.


    When you're playing you pickup many things at a conscious and sub conscious level as many of your senses are in play
    simultaneously. You have a heightened perception level going on more so than just listening.

  • WTF is going on here. This is cyberchondria pointed towards a piece of gear...It's like going to the doctor with a problem and he is telling you everything is alright after a thorough examination. Will you go home and buy "doctor equipmet" to prove him wrong or just go on with your lives? I mean to those who are so super unhappy with 1.6. Just don't use it...

  • Failure is an option for me, but obviously not for you.


    Test is canceled.

    CK - I'm happy to keep my comments to myself going forward.


    My intention is not to argue or discredit anyone, it's to help everyone.


    During the business day I'm paid well to consult and here I am giving it away for free. :D


    I'm content to continue with 1.54 and remain close lipped.


    If others proceed power to them if it makes no difference to them.


  • Why cancel the test? Some folks sent their address... :rolleyes:

  • I can hear no differences in my rigs in 1.6.0, but i think i can hear slight differences in the audio samples that were posted. So i suggest we all work together to narrow it down. Those of you who seem to have bigger problems should post their components in the signal chain.


    Myself, i use guitars with high output PUs, mainly high gain rigs with gain set in the region of 6. Noise Gate to 2.8, No stomps...


    I could imagine that certain stomps like distortion/expander or the noise gate in combination with low output PUs like those from a Strat could be the cause. Perhaps something that is locked?

  • WTF is going on here. This is cyberchondria pointed towards a piece of gear...It's like going to the doctor with a problem and he is telling you everything is alright after a thorough examination. Will you go home and buy "doctor equipmet" to prove him wrong or just go on with your lives? I mean to those who are so super unhappy with 1.6. Just don't use it...


    ... but the new Green Screamer and some of the new effects are awesome... this is a common situation in the user-support relationship. Sometimes the user was detecting a real problem and the problem was difficult to reproduce but finally succeeds, sometimes the user was wrong. And both the user and support team can be great professionals, but no one can check every possibility.


    I think there is "something" and I love diggin into this kind of misteries so I'll do some more tests.

  • This message is intended to Mr. Kemper as a the owner or partner of Kemper GmbH.


    My take on this is not scientific at all, but...


    Last weekend coming back home from work, excited to play my Kemper, I candidly updated the firmware, wiped the whole thing to install the factory rigs, Pack04 and went through all the newly organized profiles, explored the new presets, fu*ked up with the stomps, positions and all... To that point I had nothing to complain about, I was happy.


    Then I transferred back my saved profiles from USB that I had carefully tweaked in the last 2-3 weeks.


    Well I spent most of my time, fu*king around with the adjustment of everything because it just didn't sound right... There is nothing scientific about this but I don't think there is a need for it to be scientific. It just didn't feel right. It was different, different the wrong way...


    At Christmas, in all honesty, after onlybabout 2 hours I received the Kemper, I found the sound I was seeking for in the last 15 years, magic took place and tears came out my eyes as I was finally playing the sounds I was hearing in my head.


    Last weekend, not thinking it had anything to do with 1.6.0, I spent my whole fu*king time tweaking the sound I thought I nailed the previous weekend...


    Even my wife screamed at me from the second floor at some point, not because I was too loud or playing shitty but because I was constantly stopping to adjust my tone...


    Anyway, I will revert back to 1.5.x not being happy at all with the Beta of 1.6.0... Whatever was done there, I don't like it one bit. I don't care about the new features if it takes out the soul of what I bought and was longing for so many years.


    And you know what?
    It has nothing to do with science and graph and a/b testing... It has everything to do with emotions and feeling. When something brings tears to my eyes in reaction of my own actions on the fretboard, this is a phenomenal thing. If the emotion is not there; then I should just sell my Kemper and go back to my POD HD500 and VG-99, VSTs, IRs and all that shit... They are all different but all the same anyway, except the VG-99 which has great qualities on its own.


    I am sad to read that Mr. Kemper is playing chicken with his customers in the main "1.6.0 sounds different" thread...
    If customers are debating that much in such a short time, in my own compnany's forum, all dashboard lights should be bright red and all hands should be on deck to "face" the situation appropriately. Not the time for improvisation...


    Mr. Kemper, you could at least say to your paying customers that you just don't know what is going on and that you will seriously look into it and come back to us.
    Since now you have decided to intervene in the thread, you are kind of fuc*ed because not only you were cynical about the ones who are feeling/hearing a difference but you are challenging us to prove you wrong...


    Some of your customers are actually challenging you! It is to you prove them wrong, politely and professionally. They pay your bills and promote your stuff more than you think. Not a good idea to piss them off no matter how good your gear is...


    This is not a really professional behavior Mr. Kemper, I would be fired on the spot if I would ever dare to behave like this with my customers (I work for the largest German software company so I kind of know the culture within and outside Germany. I can tell you that the way to behave is not the same and you can't assume everybody will get what you really mean just by writing in English. It will actually read much harsher than it is meant but youncertainly already know about this).


    No rush, just take the time to think about your action plan. NAMM is coming and I truly understand how important it is to develop a business, make new sales and close new deals. Just never forget your foundation customers, you already have them and they just ask to be pleased/reassured, not being played chicken or being ridiculed. You are the head of this fantastic project... Why are you behaving like this?


    If 1.6.0 was rushed out the door it is ok because it is a Beta. This happens all the time, you just need to set the expectations appropriately to the community when releasing, not making people think that it's the best thing after sliced bread... Say: it's Beta... Cool stuff but still rough... Be warned and don't flame us for it. Comments and debates are welcomed but again, it's Beta...


    It would be cooler to inform your fans / paying customers that you are addressing this internally instead of challenging the forum users on a game of "who has the longest di*k"... In the end, Kemper will loose... So, don't waiste a good opportunity to make amends and be a good and diligent business owner and say to your loyal customers:


    "Do not fear, everything is going to be alright".


    Cheers,


    Marc Desrochers.

  • I can hear no differences in my rigs in 1.6.0, but i think i can hear slight differences in the audio samples that were posted. So i suggest we all work together to narrow it down. Those of you who seem to have bigger problems should post their components in the signal chain.


    +1


    My last test was with a completely dry rig based in Morgan AC20 reamping with both versions. With this dry profile, I couldn't identify any difference. This is good. Today, I'll test one more dry profile (Andy's Hiwatt). Then, the same profile adding post eq (only volume). Then, the same profile boosting some frequency with the eq. Then, adding volume to the cab section. Then, I don't know, maybe changes in distortion sense.. If I can identify differences in any of this configurations, I'll post the clips here and info about the configuration. If not... I will upgrade to 1.6...

  • Is this your honest opinion brother? Did you listen harder and change you mind? ?(:thumbup:


    I switched to 1.60 and liked very much that the artifacts are gone.
    The next day did I not like the sound of the KPA (all without TS).
    I thought it was me and checked my hearing by playin some real tube amp - they were fine.


    The next day I played the KPA again and it sounds the same - I installed 1.52 and liked the feel/sound better - then I started this thread to see what others think.


    Unfortunatly has my mixer I use in my guitar studio (Alesis Mastercontrol) no digital out - so I don't do reamping.
    I could use my Fireface from my Keyboard-Rack but was to lazy to bring all to that room.


    So I created a track with 1.52 - updated the firmware to 1.6 and played the same again.
    The 1.52 track sounded THIS much better. (my first sample posted)


    To be sure I did the same test with two more tracks (clean and distorted) - the difference was much smaler - and may come from slidly different playing. The distorted one sound almost the same - maybe here comes the difference from the "missing" artefacts.


    I can not hear a difference in reamped tracks posted by other users.


    I reamped myself (with the analoge output = extra noise) and can not hear a difference.


    This all was done without effects - I did not test if the KPA sounds different wet.


    Why was there such a big difference in my first sample?
    I don' know - but my other tests shows not so big differences.
    Maybe I used accidentally two different guitars - I own 3 Telecasters ;(


    At least do we now have highly tested 1.60.


    Since other users hear differences too - they may find it - or as I guess - all we miss are the artefacts from 1.54 :D

    (All trademarks are trademarks of their respective owners, which are in no way associated or affiliated with soundside.de)


    Great Profiles --> soundside.de

    Edited 3 times, last by Armin ().

  • @CK


    I think that there is a lot of people who's reading and agreeing with you without posting. They are very happy with the sound of 1.6.0 that is not changed.
    I'm one of those... I'm just not posting often because my experience has taught me that some kind of discussions are simply... endless!
    The funny thing is that this type of super-hearing players are (often) even really good in playing, but they just trust too much they're ears :)
    Never trust your ear too much... you can be very disappointed! :thumbdown:


  • Thanks so much for the very thorough response. I think if we didn't like the KPA so much we wouldn't care that it stays a great as it has been. I didn't load 1.6 yet, but like Tyler, I was concerned about the differences I heard in the supplied clips. Couple that with this not having been a potential issue brought to the forums attention with other FW updates, I was concerned.


    It's beta and I'm cool with the FW I'm running. I would hate to miss out on future features but I would if the tone and feel I like were to be sacrificed. I'm glad to see the dev team is improving the stomps because some of them in the crunch/distortion/fuzz department absolutely suck, IMO.


    Dank wieder für die Antwort. 8)

  • Ok, i hv no knowledge of iZotope and all that precise measuring stuff. All i know is, i dumped the Axe Fx once it didnt sound right and went for Kemper which did sound much better for me.


    I downloaded firmware 1.6.0 a few days ago and last night when i turned it on to do some tracking...i wasnt completely sober (on 2,5 Stilnox...sleep meds, prescribed, no judgements please). Even in my less sober state, i went '?(?!!!' the moment i played the 1st note. I used ampfactory TwoRock profile that i tweaked meticulously so i know how its supposed to respond to my guitar. The 1st response for me was to turn up the presence (didnt do it)...then treble (didnt do it either)...then post amp EQ (fiddling between 2,5 to 5k boosting it up...didnt do it either).


    So i finished my demo regardless comparing Fender to Raw Vintage saddles on my Scott Henderson Suhr (yes i can do work even under the influence of sleep meds...i even did a nice demo of 'Axe Fx Ultra Before I Forget' on youtube perfectly under the meds, feel free to check it out).


    Thats when i decided to check if somn's up on Kemper forum n lo n behold...40 pages of mayhem did i read through. I feel like i need to just say 'Aww come on, if even i was that drowsy and heard it surely everyone here can stand by their opinion when they say they heard a difference too!' :thumbsup:


    Seriously though, im probably the only person here saying everyone else definitely should hv better hearing and perspective due to my state of consciousness but the 'feel' does not lie...otherwise Hendrix in all his consciousness state wouldve sucked so bad to everyone listening to em. Thats not the case, he felt it!! ...as did i.


    That being said 'its a Beta, yadda yadda...' cool, no problem, just change it for the final version or somn...but to deny so many ears is simply quite 'uncool' (im trying to sound very nice as this place can hit people's nerve very very easily...but i love it ^^ )

  • This message is intended to Mr. Kemper as a the owner or partner of Kemper GmbH.
    Mr. Kemper, you could at least say to your paying customers that you just don't know what is going on and that you will seriously look into it and come back to us.
    Since now you have decided to intervene in the thread, you are kind of fuc*ed because not only you were cynical about the ones who are feeling/hearing a difference but you are challenging us to prove you wrong...


    Great post, Marc!
    Well worth the read for CK, imho.


    Cheers,
    Martin

  • Yes and I think also English may be a language barrier in both ways (it is for me at least) that makes the communication a bit harder.
    But the official response is very strange to say the least. How is it a good tactic to select graphs and people that suits an opinion and ignore the rest, instead of doing some more technical and in-depth analysis? I really do not enjoy this, I just love my pre 1.6 KPA sound, and do not want it to change. CK isn't it possible to find someone who you trust, maybe some artist from Germany, or maybe from inside the Kemper team to consult with, who can hear the difference? Or there is no one like this? By reading this thread it seems we are quite a lot. If this drama will continue till weekend without a solution, I'm hoping I can do some more tests with my unit, but my opinion regarding the tone change is constant since the end of November. Something does not feel right for me.
    Oh, and by the way if someone is interested, the profile that I instantly experienced this tonal change is my Cornell Romany Plus profile that I'm familiar with very well. It is on the exchange. Maybe worth mentioning that I also use a very low capacitance cable (Elixir), so it is much more chimey and bright that regular guitar cables. Maybe this exaggerates the change more. I'm not sure what is going on, but I just do not like how this update sounds. Honestly. :)

  • Great post, Marc!
    Well worth the read for CK, imho.


    Cheers,
    Martin


    I don't think it's a big deal. I believe some might be mistaking an engineer's desire for 'hard data' as an 'ego trip'. If you can show data proving him wrong and he can replicate it (scientific method), then it'll get fixed. That's not being "fuc*ed", that's just "data" - data the company is probably seeking in a public beta release.


    We all don't have the same ears, so you have to resort to measurements to normalize the conversation.


    p.s. I added [Mr. Kemper] to the quote above for clarity since I snipped the introductory sentences.

  • I have experienced the change with this setup:


    low output single coil guitar > low capacitance guitar cable > KPA front input > S/PDIF out > RME HDSP 9632 > Reaper > Studio Monitors and headphones.


    Most of the time I have my input sens. quite high, above 6-7.


    profile: Cornell Romany Plus (by me, Daniel Rigler, its on the exchange)