Hm, don't like the sound from FW 1.6 (Edit Fixed now)

  • The only thing that could stop this, is honest and open communication from Kemper. Tell us what have changed, how it affected the aliasing, and why is it that sure that the sonical qualities have not changed. Without these I can only depend on my findings. And those are that 1.5 is different (for me better).


    This is what I wrote in an earlier post:


    I checked intensively through studio monitors and headphones and I can say, that both tracks sound absolutely identical.
    We had a number of producers and pro guitarists checking these tracks. Same result.
    We have made a spectrum analysis of both tracks. No difference in the high end.


    We have not changed the code in terms of sound. Only the aliasing issue and the Green Scream were addressed. There was no need to change the anti-aliasing filters.


    For some of you this message was "disappointing", or not honest, as I learn.
    I understand that you will not accept anything else from me than saying: Yes, we have changed the tone - sorry, we'll bring the old feeling back. Because so many people cannot fail, that would be only honest statement.


    But I have to repeat myself: We didnt change the code in terms of tonal characteristics and feel. There was no need to.


    In the mean time we had the chance to make a complete A/B comparison. We had a brand new Profiler Rack version with 1.60, and a white Profiler Head from December 2011 (first series) mixed and played through Genelec studio speakers. We used an A/B switch to feed the guitar to either the one or the other Profiler. That is the optimum setup for an A/B test of firmware versions.


    We had to balance the volumes of both units in 0.1 dB steps first, because the ear can be fooled by the slightest energy difference.


    We had seven people participating, each one with 10 to 30 years of experience as a musician and producer/mixer. Four of them were guitarists, two of them below 30 years old, with a possibly better hearing.
    We played the guitar round-robin, to everybody could catch the feel of the sound, while the others listened to the sound itself.


    Later we used a looper as a "reamping" unit for checking differences in the pure frequency responce by eliminating the human variance in playing. We played different rigs, from clean to high gain. We did blind tests too, since every participant was trapped by his own imagination, and everybody was aware of that.


    We tested for more than two hours. The result: Both units sounded exactly the same. It was not even possible to work out a slight difference, that could be owed to the different hardwares from different series. I had expected an ever so slight difference, so we would have swapped the hardware to see how the difference would change. But nothing. Not even a difference in perception by the improved aliasing.


    We did not make any recordings (exept the looper) or matchings, as we trusted the most accurate sound measuring device. In our case it was 14 well trained and experienced ears.
    If there was a difference that big, that you would hear it after minutes of updating, or even the other day, it would have been revealed in the first seconds of this perfect A/B comparison, where there was no pause between switching between 1.54 and 1.60.


    Conclusion: there is no evidence where we could correct the firmware. No clue what to change.



    However, this will still not satisfy you, as you hear what you hear and so many users have heard it, and so many cannot fail.
    By the way: there has not been a single firmware update last year, where at least two users posted about a possible sound change. Now we've got the critical mass. This thread will go on forever.


  • Are we so presumptuous to accuse the inventor that he's not an expert of his own device or that he's purposefully deceiving us?


    Obviously that's not the case but it is also a possibility that he may be wrong and he does not know. We are just trying to help here. Nothing else.

  • I really don't see what more they can do - and this right in the middle of NAMM. From what I've read no one here has conducted a comparable set of blind tests.
    CK seems to genuinely want to investigate claims of a change in sound. He's done the tests, he wrote the code, he should know... what more can be asked?


    Thanks :thumbup:

    Suhr Classic Pro, Fender deluxe Strat & Baja Tele, Gibson ES335, Ibanez S Prestige 2170FW, Eastman AR371CE, Variax JTV > KPA > Patch bay inc. Strymons (Mobius, Timeline, Blue Sky), H9 Max, TC Triple Delay, & POD HD500 > Adam A7Xs

  • We did not make any recordings (exept the looper) or matchings, as we trusted the most accurate sound measuring device.


    Why not take the time and do this to be 100% sure? It can be done completely digital so there would not be any external factor that could alter the results.

  • Thanks CK for taking the time to make the tests. And also I would like to apologize if I offended you in any of my posts. I really like my KPA. I just simply felt 1.6 different. I can honestly say that I did not want to stir this thread unnecessary. I was just surprised that a thread pops up from nowhere independently from my early beta observations. This seemed to affirm my findings. /and seemingly a lot of other peoples too/. I think I will just go with the flow and update to the latest FW, as I really like the other improvements. So all in all, thanks again for the more detailed answer and arranging a test like that. I can still make amazing music (well my neighbors probably feel otherwise) with my KPA, and thats what really matters!

  • Why not take the time and do this to be 100% sure? It can be done completely digital so there would not be any external factor that could alter the results.


    Sorry, but that blows be away. Is this a serious advice?
    How can I beat our hearings with a tool, whose accuracy I don't know? What is the technical device that will measure dynamics and feel?
    Imagine we had done technical measurements instead of a hearing? People would come and say, it's not a 100% proof.

  • When this thread gets to page 55 I'll copy and paste Mr Kempers post again. :thumbup:
    Someone else can do it on page 65.....................

    I'll take page 1.6.0... :D

    Suhr Classic Pro, Fender deluxe Strat & Baja Tele, Gibson ES335, Ibanez S Prestige 2170FW, Eastman AR371CE, Variax JTV > KPA > Patch bay inc. Strymons (Mobius, Timeline, Blue Sky), H9 Max, TC Triple Delay, & POD HD500 > Adam A7Xs

  • 1) I have never said that the value of the product is in danger of getting lost. It was more like a challenge: I hear a difference and I was ready to prove my point. The more people said it wasn't possible the more I felt driven to prove my point - not because of the vast change, but to defend my ears and perception.


    2) I don't understand why I was asked to send an email to the support ASAP (2 minutes after the post) and now nothing came out of it. I was and still am ready to take the test - even if the result would have meant that I would have to admit that my ears were deceited / psyched.


    3) If I had taken 2 or more hours of intense testing, I would have made sure to be able to provide something that can be shown in public (although I am aware of the fact that probably people (including me) would still have been suspicious).


    4) Still I haven't read anything about whether something about the effects (stomps, reverbs, delays, eqs) might have been changed which could result in a different perception of sounds.


    5) Apart from feeling driven to look for a proof, I will live happily with 1.6 and if I feel that there's some need for an adjustment in the effects - I will gladly adjust. After 3 months of getting to know the KPA, I am 100% sure that I will keep on tweaking and tweaking and tweaking - that's what we do, isn't it? I am certain, however, that the profiles itself aren't different from any other FW and thus I don't see a problem.


  • How can I beat our hearings with a tool, whose accuracy I don't know? What is the technical device that will measure dynamics and feel?


    The same reasoning could be used to say that how could you trust some else's hearing if you cannot measure their hearing accuracy. In any case I am talking about using tools that you know you can trust on things that you can measure.



    Imagine we had done technical measurements instead of a hearing? People would come and say, it's not a 100% proof.


    Nobody is saying to use one method over the other.In my opinion both methods are complementary and it should not be one or the other.

  • Hi!


    Do you want clips?


    In my first test, I was not reamping but playing twice using the Hiwatt profile. I've just reamped a track via spdif using the Hiwatt profile in two configurations: with the post eq desactivated (dry) and with the post eq activated (wet).


    I'm posting here the four clips changing the name so you cannot identify which one corresponds to 1.6 or 1.5.4. Today I'm tired but I cannot hear any differences.
    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3645952/dry%20one.wav
    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3645952/dry%20two.wav


    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3645952/wet%20one.wav
    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3645952/wet%20two.wav


    Do you hear any differences? Can you identify which one is v1.6.0?


    [Blocked Image: http://www.illusionspoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/optical-illusion-art-15.JPG]


    Saludos!
    Paco

  • [quote='DanielRigler',index.php?page=Thread&postID=65600#post65600]Conclusion: there is no evidence where we could correct the firmware. No clue what to change.



    However, this will still not satisfy you, as you hear what you hear and so many users have heard it, and so many cannot fail.
    By the way: there has not been a single firmware update last year, where at least two users posted about a possible sound change. Now we've got the critical mass. This thread will go on forever.


    I haven't installed the Beta as I'm in the middle of a recording project for a paid, and paying, client. I heard differences in some of the supplied recordings. I monitor with my studio nearfields. Your explanation is strongly stated and reassuring that the KPA has not been altered in neither tone nor feel. That's good enough for me.


    Have a good NAMM. The rack should generate some buzz and orders! :thumbup:

  • CK.
    I feel compelled to say I have never been happier with my guitar sound than with the KPA and 1.6. The sound I get with my CS strat and the KPA just blows my mind every time. I have played guitar for 35 years and played and rotated a lot of amps and pedals.
    Heartfelt thanks and good luck with NAMM!
    Dan


  • I only listed to the dry tracks and being completely honest I don't hear any difference on those. I am starting to wonder if something could have gone wrong in my FW update but it is weird because I did it twice and in both cases I could hear the differences while playing and it even shows up in the comparison I did.


    CK, do you think I should check something in my unit or do a system reset?

  • The same reasoning could be used to say that how could you trust some else's hearing if you cannot measure their hearing accuracy. In any case I am talking about using tools that you know you can trust on things that you can measure.



    Nobody is saying to use one method over the other.In my opinion both methods are complementary and it should not be one or the other.


    ??????