Hm, don't like the sound from FW 1.6 (Edit Fixed now)

Quote from Brattcave

32 People voted in the poll that "the sound before 1.6.0 was better" ...surely one of these men can assist CK in the bug hunt...

No.
No sound, no picture, no clips.
We have passed the 700 posts.
We have 2 reamped clips only.
We have contradictionary statements all over, but no full grown male who would analyse those contradictional perceptions.
I cannot moderate that, because I am the suspect to be proven wrong.

There is a common sense and thesis that a system reset would solve the problem.
But nobody has an interest to verify this thesis.

Let me tell you something about sound and feel.
If two sound feels different, but sounds absolutely the same, only the latency can be the cause.
Beside that, there is no sound, that feels different but sounds the same. Many of you know, what I am talking about.
Those will remember, when we lowered the latency, it was noticable in certain situations. Nobody stated at that time, that the sound has changed. But the feel.
If there was a change in feel just by latency, many of you would have stated this from the beginning.
If there was a change in sound, we would have noticed it in the reamping comparisons, and we would have tons of clips on our desk.

Quote from ckemper

Seems that nobody is interested in making a before/after clip with reamping.

Berfore -> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/74444515/test%20kpa%201.6.0.wav
After -> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/74444…20kpa%201.6.0%20after.wav

Here you have as well some screenshots I just took from Reaper after zooming in the tracks to see the waves in detail.

[Blocked Image: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/74444515/Screen%20Shot%202013-01-19%20at%201.59.18%20PM.png]

[Blocked Image: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/74444515/Screen%20Shot%202013-01-19%20at%202.00.36%20PM.png]

[Blocked Image: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/74444515/Screen%20Shot%202013-01-19%20at%202.03.59%20PM.png]

[Blocked Image: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/74444515/Screen%20Shot%202013-01-19%20at%202.05.13%20PM.png]

The 1st track on the each screenshot is the reamp that I already posted previously (and again above) before I did the system reset.
The 2nd and 3rd tracks are 2 different reamps done after the system reset.

If you look at the screenshots you can see that tracks 2 and 3 are identical while track 1 is different.

I hope this helps to clarify everything completely because unfortunately I cannot dedicate more time to perform more tests, updates and reampings. Althought it might not appear that way, this is very time consuming.

Edited: The links were appearing as text.

Quote from clarkydaz

gorillabendz - maybe yours was fine from the start anyway? (lucky you)
no need to relive this thread, lets move on

Not trying to relive the thread - but would love specific answers to questions that I asked. And by the way - I did the same thing that SteelEdge did - I was at 1.5.2 - upgraded to 1.5.4 before I went to 1.6.0 (I used the 1.5.4 release, not Beta). This is probably why I didnt see the change - not sure though.

I know I may not get them - but would love to understand the contradictions. Otherwise there are no specifics in here - just a lot of discussion and data

If it's any consolation - I knew exactly what I was getting into when I loaded 1.6.0 - it's a BETA - and I knew what I should expect. But again, doesnt help anyone if we dont discuss specifics here, does it?

Over 'n out

Here goes my experience and my oppinion:

I felt a lost of tone/sound/feeling (call it what you want) just after upgrading to 1.6. I didn't know about this post at that point, so I wasn't "contaminated".And the difference was evident, I play thru a Mesa 20:20 poweramp and two 4x12 Mesa Cabinet V30/Engl Cabinet V60, analog main outputs.Never did a Spdif test or tried thru the headphones.

I checked the guitar cable, the poweramp, cabinet wires..... because in the begining I didn't think it was because of the upgrade.Then,after all that, I saw this post.

All I've done is to tell and assure that there was a BIG difference for me, like if something was "broken", the Kemper had now a dull sound, reminded me instantly of the Axe II feeling.I wanted to check if Armin was right, so I downgraded to 1.5.4 and the good old sound came back and everything was solved, so I blamed the 1.6.

After all the controversy, the latency stuff, etc etc, I upgraded and downgraded a couple of times making tests, and suddenly, I had good sound with 1.60.Then, downgraded/upgraded again and bad sound returned.Did it again and the good sound came back.

I NEVER DID A SYSTEM RESET.

I assume that, at least in my Kemper, the upgrade proccess changed something, some parameter, some level, some latency...I DON'T KNOW WHAT.Maybe that change or that problem never showed if you go thru spdif or did a reamping, or recording a track.....but playing thru a poweramp and cabinets, believe me, there was a big difference.

I assume that in one of my upgrades, the proccess didn't change that parameter, or maybe I touched something while checking, I don't know, but the good sound came back, and IT WAS VERY EVIDENT.

Then Armin suggested the system reset, wich solved his problem, and that seems to work to all the people, so based in my experience I assume that I was right and that something else than the firmware was changed when I upgraded.

Still don't know what it was, but based on my empiric experience, that is my conclusion.

And I hope that my experience can be used as help to others with the same problem, seems like now everything is happy thanks to the contribution of all the members that tried to help in this thread.

Now I'm happy, and, as Forrest Gump used to say: that's all I have to say about that

BTW, page 75... I made a commitment

Hm, don't like the sound from FW 1.6 (Edit Fixed now)

Quote from ckemper

No.
No sound, no picture, no clips.
We have passed the 700 posts.
We have 2 reamped clips only.
We have contradictionary statements all over, but no full grown male who would analyse those contradictional perceptions.
I cannot moderate that, because I am the suspect to be proven wrong.

There is a common sense and thesis that a system reset would solve the problem.
But nobody has an interest to verify this thesis.

Let me tell you something about sound and feel.
If two sound feels different, but sounds absolutely the same, only the latency can be the cause.
Beside that, there is no sound, that feels different but sounds the same. Many of you know, what I am talking about.
Those will remember, when we lowered the latency, it was noticable in certain situations. Nobody stated at that time, that the sound has changed. But the feel.
If there was a change in feel just by latency, many of you would have stated this from the beginning.
If there was a change in sound, we would have noticed it in the reamping comparisons, and we would have tons of clips on our desk.

Display More

Christoph, I spent quite a lot of time analyzing in this thread, including analyzing the differences. Including suggesting first that latency might be the issue, as well as analyzing the primary reamps and suggesting that a parameter might have been incorrectly adjusted on these units either by firmware update or by user which was pushing the input values (I.e. input sens settings maybe) due to the obvious compression happening in the clips, which would also account for the frequency shifts heard. What I didn't do was go the next logical step and suggest the reset, that was down to other forum users to do.

I'm going to be blunt here. As the developer this should be your job. Instead you came in gangbusters believing not in science or human error but in magic bug free code and in the few tests that you ran over the words of the users, attacking your users for suggesting tht something was off, even when they provided evidence, and still you berate your users even now. Now i know it can be frustrating as a developer to get negative or vague feedback but Fully grown male individuals know when to admit fallibility. As a developer you have two two lines of enquiry when a potential bug is reported. Firstly to find out what's is the root cause of the bug, whether its an actual bug in your code or simply use error and misunderstanding either way you want to fix that so that it doesn't happen again because it makes your own life easier of you're not spending time on support queries all day, and secondly you want to guide those users to an acceptable solution or workaround until the problem can see a longer term solution enacted.

Right now I'm just very very disappointed. Not just in you, but also in the way the community has acted on this and continued to lack respect for those members who were suffering a problem. There are still a few fully grown male individuals here, but the rest clearly don't know that the only mature route to respect is to respect others.

I am with Armin in that "Aux in " issue .
Just strum the chord and turn Aux in from 0-10 until chord sound is till on .
Somewhere about middle position (say 5-6) you will hear like something switch off and on (not crack , but similar) , and than Kemper sound will go down .
At least 30 % more weaker.
You need to increase/decrease main output volume to get the sound on the same level as before .

If you do not turn up main output volume - Kemper will stay on that weaker sound level , which can be described more like a DULL than just weaker ????
That dull sound is very similar to the first bad sounds I get after first 1.6.0 update and before reset !!!????

I've got a feeling , this Aux in issue and latency on/off might have some connection with all of this 1.6.0 issue .

By the way ,in all of this journey I get to 1.52 , 1.5.4 and 1.6.0

By far, 1.5.2 has that "best feel " and sound , making me smile and play like a crazy , which cannot be misunderstood for 1.5.4 and no way for 1.6.
0 , even if after reset when 1.6.0 sounds OK .
!
So , in all of this "drama" , I think Kemper team should find and measure if possible, what is that what makes 1.5.2 so superior ....

don't have any explanation (since being Chemical Eng. I can only say-bad fuel

-bad profiles from bad amps) but Electronic engineers might have some better ideas except re-setting.....

(this changing in letters format becomes pain in the arse bu the way !!!!!! )

Quote from Per

No.
No sound, no picture, no clips.
We have passed the 700 posts.
We have 2 reamped clips only.
We have contradictionary statements all over, but no full grown male who would analyse those contradictional perceptions.
I cannot moderate that, because I am the suspect to be proven wrong.

There is a common sense and thesis that a system reset would solve the problem.
But nobody has an interest to verify this thesis.

Let me tell you something about sound and feel.
If two sound feels different, but sounds absolutely the same, only the latency can be the cause.
Beside that, there is no sound, that feels different but sounds the same. Many of you know, what I am talking about.
Those will remember, when we lowered the latency, it was noticable in certain situations. Nobody stated at that time, that the sound has changed. But the feel.
If there was a change in feel just by latency, many of you would have stated this from the beginning.
If there was a change in sound, we would have noticed it in the reamping comparisons, and we would have tons of clips on our desk.

Display More

Christoph, I spent quite a lot of time analyzing in this thread, including analyzing the differences. Including suggesting first that latency might be the issue, as well as analyzing the primary reamps and suggesting that a parameter might have been incorrectly adjusted on these units either by firmware update or by user which was pushing the input values (I.e. input sens settings maybe) due to the obvious compression happening in the clips, which would also account for the frequency shifts heard. What I didn't do was go the next logical step and suggest the reset, that was down to other forum users to do.

I'm going to be blunt here. As the developer this should be your job. Instead you came in gangbusters believing not in science or human error but in magic bug free code and in the few tests that you ran over the words of the users, attacking your users for suggesting tht something was off, even when they provided evidence, and still you berate your users even now. Now i know it can be frustrating as a developer to get negative or vague feedback but Fully grown male individuals know when to admit fallibility. As a developer you have two two lines of enquiry when a potential bug is reported. Firstly to find out what's is the root cause of the bug, whether its an actual bug in your code or simply use error and misunderstanding either way you want to fix that so that it doesn't happen again because it makes your own life easier of you're not spending time on support queries all day, and secondly you want to guide those users to an acceptable solution or workaround until the problem can see a longer term solution enacted.

Right now I'm just very very disappointed. Not just in you, but also in the way the community has acted on this and continued to l

I think his point is that you guys haven't proven anything scientifically and consistently, and you can't expect a developer to act empirically on "feeling".

I don't agree with the last statement .
Actually the developer MUST react scientifically on customers feeling .
On the first place we are musician /guitarists using highly sophisticated and scientifically built device .

But we are not scientists , we are users with FEELING , and that must (or just should be ) taken in consideration .

I bought KPA because of FEELING and response to mu fingers and guitar controls , not because of scientific 01010100010001110000111 and so on ....

Quote from Animus

I think his point is that you guys haven't proven anything scientifically and consistently, and you can't expect a developer to act empirically on "feeling".

Kemper team did their test, as CK wrote in this thread. Probably, the bug is one of those very difficult to reproduce consistently and not everybody with the problem has the minimum equipment needed to reamp and make a good test of the problem. Kemper units didn't have the problem so the could have spent a week without detecting a problem. If the problem comes back to my KPA, the first thing I'll do before reseting anything is recording and reamping some tracks.

Quote from pacocito

Kemper team did their test, as CK wrote in this thread. Probably, the bug is one of those very difficult to reproduce consistently and not everybody with the problem has the minimum equipment needed to reamp and make a good test of the problem. Kemper units didn't have the problem so the could have spent a week without detecting a problem. If the problem comes back to my KPA, the first thing I'll do before reseting anything is recording and reamping some tracks.

Or perhaps there is the possibility there isn't a problem?

Quote from Rescator

I don't agree with the last statement .
Actually the developer MUST react scientifically on customers feeling .
On the first place we are musician /guitarists using highly sophisticated and scientifically built device .

But we are not scientists , we are users with FEELING , and that must (or just should be ) taken in consideration .

I bought KPA because of FEELING and response to mu fingers and guitar controls , not because of scientific 01010100010001110000111 and so on ....

Display More

Call Oprah then.

Quote from SteelEdge

.
Then Armin suggested the system reset, wich solved his problem, and that seems to work to all the people, so based in my experience I assume that I was right and that something else than the firmware was changed when I upgraded.

It works for me too though i prefer when it was buggy.
It seems to me that there is a preamp activated somewhere, that's the difference. It rings, but too much, and it kills details with high gain amps.

Quote from mba

It works for me too though i prefer when it was buggy.
It seems to me that there is a preamp activated somewhere, that's the difference. It rings, but too much, and it kills details with high gain amps.

Oh! Sorry.

Per,

The answers of your fellow users reflect exactly my situation and my opinion.
It's trivial to say it's my job is to find bugs. Absolutely true. It is also my job to find out, whether a perception is an imagination or not. We've had to deal with imagination maybe a hundred times during the last year.

You say there is obvious compression happening in the clips. But no one else mentioned compression in the clips. This is +1 to the confusion. But many state to hear a compressed sound in 1.60. Me and more than a dozend people that I trust say that the clips do not reveal a difference.

As I said, we have performed multiple tests on our own, but no evidence.
Here it's time to answer a bizzar question: Man_With_Gas, of course I compared both software versions extensively by playing my guitar. How could you doubt that?

You mention that we ignore evidences. But we have no clear evidence so far.

MadH's A/A/B comparison of the waveforms is a first hint where to look, in combination with the system reset thesis. Thank you very much for your efforts! We will follow that hint.

If some of you does not understand, why this is a hint that we can trace, and the others not, I will be happy to explain it later.

Quote from ckemper

Per,

The answers of your fellow users reflect exactly my situation and my opinion.
It's trivial to say it's my job is to find bugs. Absolutely true. It is also my job to find out, whether a perception is an imagination or not. We've had to deal with imagination maybe a hundred times during the last year.

You say there is obvious compression happening in the clips. But no one else mentioned compression in the clips. This +1 to the confusion. But many state to hear a compressed sound in 1.60. Me and more than a dozend people that I trust say that the clips do not reveal a difference.

As I said, we have performed multiple tests on our own, but no evidence.
Here it's time to answer a bizzar question: Man_With_Gas, of course I compared both software versions extensively by playing my guitar. How could you doubt that?

You mention that we ignore evidences. But we have no clear evidence so far.

MadH's A/A/B comparison of the waveforms is a first hint where to look, in combination with the system reset thesis. Thank you very much for your efforts! We will follow that hint.

If some of you does not understand, why this is a hint that we can trace, and the others not, I will be happy to explain it later.

Display More

Christopher, I agree with you in 90%.

you have to be serious and work like a pro, so you need something to work on, a hint, a waveform or something you can use that demostrates that there's a difference in 1.60.The rest is just speculations, but....

I had a problem with my Kemper, it didn't sound good to me after upgrading, and, sorry, I didn't record anything, or have any evidences, but tried to help and share finding a solution with the community.

Mostly people here probably bought the Kemper because the feeling and response compared to other devices, and, if anyone of them feels that there's something wrong wit his unit, he has the right to ask, complaint and try to find a solution.

From my point of view, you were fair and tried to help telling what you think and what evidences you had, and that helped too (for me, was the beginning of thinkining that the problem wasn't the firmware itself), but you didn't take serious enough the complaints of the people that had a problem.And true or not, proven or not, they really think they had a problem with their Kemper (I include myself), so maybe this thread derailed a little with people making fun of other users, I like jokes, but always from a respectful point of view.

This wasn't a "who's right or not" contest, so, every point of view, even the wrong ones, must be taken in consideration, specially when there's a lot of people having the same "problem".

I think you tried to be supportive, but denied the problem.Ok, you had no evidences....but you had the most important thing after that, the testimony of a lot of users that love your unit and your work.

Just my 2 cents here.

Just reporting back that my Kemper's Mojo is back on 1.6 after the system reset.

Nothing scientific here, just feeling as I play. I don't have the knowledge or the tools to compare waveforms and do spectrum analysis or that sort of things.

I came back from a week away from my Kemper with the same weird feeling as when I left last week, then I did a system reset as suggested and voilà! Mojo's back... Played all day since then and I am very happy.

Thank you Mr. Kemper for your last reply, much better answer. We don't have to know everything but just be reassured that you and your team will look into the matter with an open mind and utmost consideration.

I also wish you all the best at NAMM, I am sure that people and the specialized media will be literally flabbergasted by all the new stuff you are coming up with.

Cheers

Quote from ckemper

The answers of your fellow users reflect exactly my situation and my opinion.
It's trivial to say it's my job is to find bugs. Absolutely true. It is also my job to find out, whether a perception is an imagination or not. We've had to deal with imagination maybe a hundred times during the last year.

You say there is obvious compression happening in the clips. But no one else mentioned compression in the clips. This is +1 to the confusion. But many state to hear a compressed sound in 1.60. Me and more than a dozend people that I trust say that the clips do not reveal a difference.

As I said, we have performed multiple tests on our own, but no evidence.
Here it's time to answer a bizzar question: Man_With_Gas, of course I compared both software versions extensively by playing my guitar. How could you doubt that?

You mention that we ignore evidences. But we have no clear evidence so far.

MadH's A/A/B comparison of the waveforms is a first hint where to look, in combination with the system reset thesis. Thank you very much for your efforts! We will follow that hint.

If some of you does not understand, why this is a hint that we can trace, and the others not, I will be happy to explain it later.

Display More

Christoph, I didn't merely "hear" compression, I demonstrated as such with all the nice images that you berated us for not sharing, using the clips made available from re-amping that you are also berating us from not making, but which in fact do exist, and I did it back on page 51 of this thread : Hm, don't like the sound from FW 1.6 (Edit Fixed now) . I don't have this problem with 1.6 myself, but I went out of my way to try to help users here and got some flack for doing so because it was perceived as merely trying to find fault but as a normal customer, i.e. someone not on your dev or support team, I have to flail around in the dark to try and posit possible causes and then what I think a solution might be based purely on experience.

In fact several of us went out of our way to help each other and to help you, but the thanks is a petulant bunch of snark. Can you honestly hand on heart say that any fully grown male individuals should feel that they can report issues and bugs to Kemper at this point and expect to be taken seriously or to get a reasonable solution?

I am beginning to understand how complicated the whole matter can be: If somebody says "Something is different" there are too many cases in which people say so, because they are having a bad day or because their ears / memory error. If the developers of a machine like the Kemper would blindly believe everyone and follow every path and hint, the project would probably not have made the production stage.
On the other hand, sometimes "bugs" can be hard to reproduce or hard to prove - especially for non professionals (engeneering - programming).
Often times, people cannot exactly remember what they did / which knob they pressed when something occurred and when they try to remember, they mix things up. How could they?
Now, of course somebody might say: There are guitarists and if they say something is wrong, you can well trust them. On the other hand, I know of myself and others that they way your guitar sounds, your amp sounds can very much be influenced by your mood - so we can all be tricked and be deceited by our minds.

Hard fix. But I am positive that everything is going to turn out fine again in the end. I mean: when everything is fine and working properly - there's nothing I can imagine that might be hotter than playing the Kemper.

I think these threads get so heated because we have so much passion and love for the KPA. Let's all take a breathe and remember that we all have the same goal and are on the same team.