Profiling by DI

  • I have a Bogner 20th XTC. It has a line out and a send/return effects loop.. If I wanted to profile the head going DI would I use the line out or would I use the send and get the preamp only?

  • Just before you do this, check that the line out isn't a speaker line out, otherwise you may blow your kit up!


    Even if it is not be careful to check the levels, line outs from amps and load boxes can still get incredibly hot, so start low, then it's perfectly safe to use.

  • I recommend to better not use the effect send of an amp head to make DI profiles. This is due to the fact that there is no thing as a standard for the order concerning which parts of the signal chain come in which position. So it´s possible that the send signal will sound ultra bright, while the power amp section would compensate for this or vice versa. I already had to deal with both cases.


    Better get a little DI Box that can handle speaker levels like this:
    http://www.thomann.de/de/behringer_gi100_ultra-g.htm


    It works great, is very affordable. And you also get a little bit of coloration from your tube power amp.

  • I recommend to better not use the effect send of an amp head to make DI profiles. This is due to the fact that there is no thing as a standard for the order concerning which parts of the signal chain come in which position. So it´s possible that the send signal will sound ultra bright, while the power amp section would compensate for this or vice versa. I already had to deal with both cases.


    Better get a little DI Box that can handle speaker levels like this:
    http://www.thomann.de/de/behringer_gi100_ultra-g.htm


    It works great, is very affordable. And you also get a little bit of coloration from your tube power amp.

    So basically I can just go into the music store (Marshall distributors) that I hang out in everyday for hours and make DI Profiles of all the Marshall amps/heads that have a DI output...and then just add a Till's cab, or no cab into poweramp/cab?


    Haven't done this before.
    Must I go from the amps DI 1/4" to the KPA XLR return, or can I just use the KPA alternate 1/4" input?
    Must my KPA be connected to studio monitors, will I be hearing the amps DI through the monitors?


    What produces a better profile, using the DI, or the FX send with the Behringer GI100 or H&K Red box?
    If I'm not mistaken the GI100 and H&K add a speaker emulation?


    ?( ... :)

  • Yes you can profile using the DI outs from the marshalls, but bear in mind marshall adds an eq cab sim to their di outs normally (not sure if that's possible to disable).


    You can use the 1/4 alt input.


    The output you would hear from the KPA during profiling would be the amp's DI sound, you're still going to want to hear it though one way or another in order to refine the profile and get it accurate.


    When you do a DI profile the KPA somehow manages make a profile that has very little cab section influence, I think this is jsut a byproduct of the algorithm rather than the KA being extraordinarily clever and detecting that you're making a DI profile, but the result is that enabling/disabling the cabinet normally results in very much less of a change than with a standard profile (sometimes it's barely noticeable), which makes it ideal for then either using as a digital preamp with a real amp or swapping out the cabinet for a nice profiled cab.


    For what you're suggesting to do you may prefer to opt for something like a THD hotplate which has no cab sim output. This is what I have used without issue here although I can't guarantee everyone will have the same experiences, the line out is very very hot on those things as it's a simple analog attenuation, so you're going to need to turn that dial on the back of the THD (if that's what you end up using) way down first to make sure that what comes in doesn't blow your KPA. Don't forget that with a hotplate it's not a load box so you still need to connect the output back to the real speaker as otherwise you can blow the amp as it needs the load.

  • Thanks for the info, Per.


    I have a Weber Mini Mass, but I want to keep things as simple as possible in the store, so DI is the least hassle.
    And, DI would appear to add the least amount of "colour" possible to a Profile that is intended to be used with a poweramp/cab.

  • Just get the Behringer GI-100 and put it between the speaker out of the amp and the cabinet. It´s essential to have a cab attached because you´re not using a load box. Most load boxes tend to color the sound themselves, so i don´t like them that much. The good new is that you don´t need to set your amp to a high volume. This whole power amp distortion thing will get you nowhere. The DI profile will sound just as good if you set your amp to a moderate volume.


    If you are not using any submixer with phantom power for the DI signal, you will need to put a battery in the DI Box. I would recommend using the TS 1/4" return kack of the KPA since you are feeding it with a line level signal. Since the DI Box only has XLR connector for the DI signal, you may need an adapter or and XLR to TS cable.


    Afterwards, you add your favourite cab profiles. Very simple :)


    Since this process will be a game of trial and error to check out which amp settings work best with your favourite cabs use this little trick:
    - Use the setup as described before
    - Monitor your KPA output with headphones if you are in the same room with your cab that you use as load or studio monitors if you are in an isolated room.
    - Instead of going to profiler mode, go to normal browse mode, and deactivate everything but the cab section on the KPA. Select your favourite cab profile then
    - Now activate the effect loop in a stomp slot before the cab section.


    Now you will be able to hear the live DI signal of the amp + the cab profile. This way you can test dialing in amp settings that work best. This little trick basically allows you to use the KPA just a speaker simulator, which may be nice for those who prefer using a real amp live but want a perfect and consistent PA sound.

  • Do you think if a higher quality DI would make a better DI profile? Eg using a radial instead of the behringer? I'm after a DI to do some profiling and it'll be great if I don't have to spend much to get pretty much the same result. Cheers

  • The good new is that you don´t need to set your amp to a high volume. This whole power amp distortion thing will get you nowhere. The DI profile will sound just as good if you set your amp to a moderate volume.


    Except for Marshall's type amps where a part of the distorsion comes from the PI tube.

  • Don´t worry, the 100 DI Box series from Behringer belong to the better products by Behringer. I used those for years, and never had any problem with them. Besides, those speker level signals are not as delicate as a microphone signal which might require a more high end device.

    Okay thanks!