Discussion about free and "commercial" profiles/rigs - copying these and copy protection - some thoughts

    hi,
    i don't own a KPA yet but i will probably buy one soon - not only because my 5150 is too lound for my flat....


    What i was wondering about is:
    Why are there "commercial" profiles/rigs or rig packs for the KPA? Why isn't anyone sharing its profiles for free like all the rest does?


    I think that there should be no "commercial" packs at all - every profile should be "free" - the reason:


    The KPA is "stealing the soul of another (real) amp" like i've read. I think this short sentence is describing it quite good. It makes a copy of a real amp's sound (at least tries to do so and is obviously pretty good at it - due to the success of the KPA).
    So people that are doing the profile of the real amp do want money to steal someones else's (the real amp manufactures') product? (In some way this is like paying people for cracking software.)


    Ok you might say that the person that profiled the real amp put:

    • some time and
    • effort into it - profiling it
    • besides owning the real amp (OR maybe only borrowing it from a friend; or "worse" buying it from a music store, profiling it and sending it back within the 2 weeks period to get his money back - "fernabsatz")

    I think that the last point does not really count for paying for it.(Only the company whose amp was profiled might want to have money for "stealing" its product's sound. i.e. by requesting a "licence fee" or something similar - but the probably from Kemper - i hope this above or this below will never come/ happen:)


    Imagine what real amp manufactures would/could maybe do in the future. They could probably invent some sort of copy protection for their amps that makes it impossible to profile it anymore. Something similar happend with the bluray and the so called "cinavia" protection. (I'm too unfamiliar with sound engeneering and if this could happen to guitar amps too but i could imagine this)


    Because of this i hope that Christoph or the company - Kemper - will never add a copy protection to the .kipr profile files in any way.


    Why shouldn't it be allowed to just copy/share a "commercial" kipr file with the community?


    (Anyway i'm also wondering why these "commercial" profiles, rigs, rig packs or kipr files are not floating around in the internet. At least it seems to me that no one had uploaded them to shared file hoster; created torrents for it; whatever... but this might be a different story)


    What do you think?


    Please don't flame on me ;)

    Hi Tobi,
    welcome :)


    Quote from tobi

    Why are there "commercial" profiles/rigs or rig packs for the KPA?

    They have been acquired by Kemper and gifted to th KPA users. It often happens that a firm buys some developer to create new patches for a specific profiles.
    Having said this, not necessarily a third-part profile is "commercial", i.e. meant for a profit. And44 (TheAmp Factory) created a lot of free profiles.



    What you write here is rather incorrect. Kempre is not stealing anyone's products.
    You can actually steal a Marshall only by entering a store and exit it carrying it with you (provided you did not pay for it). Creating a mechanism able to faithfully reproduce one sonic instance of a rig is not illegal, in the same way as it's not illegal for Yamaha to build a motorbike that makes the same noise as a Harley.


    There's a substantial difference between taking a profile of an amp (or creating a patch for a per-component modeller, which is the same) and making a copy of a piece of software: when you make such a copy, you clone the original product in its integrity, and you can use the copy in the exact manner you'd use the original. they are, IOW, undistinguishable from each other.

    Again, you seem to miss the point. if you copy a DVD you create a clone which can substitute the original in its use.


    As for amps manufacturers, it has happened several times already that some modeller or profiler user has bought an amp after having heard its simulation on a digital device.




    Quote

    Because of this i hope that Christoph or the
    company - Kemper - will never add a copy protection to the .kipr profile
    files in any way.

    Sorry, I miss the logic here.



    Quote

    Why shouldn't it be allowed to just copy/share a "commercial" kipr file with the community?

    Mhhh... again, strange logic from a person who has till now stated how illegal\immoral is to steal someone else's work, don't you think?


    Quote

    (Anyway
    i'm also wondering why these "commercial" profiles, rigs, rig packs or
    kipr files are not floating around in the internet. At least it seems to
    me that no one had uploaded them to shared file hoster; created
    torrents for it; whatever...

    Mhhh... I see several possible answers here:


    Maybe because not many Italians, Russians or Greeks have yet bought profiles?


    Maybe because the KPA users are a small and selected minority of the overall Internet users?


    Maybe because the majority of KPA users are (semi\)professional musicians who don't care to save some dollars by stealing others' work?


    Maybe because the KPA (current) users are honest, admire and respect those who put their effort in creating great profiles, and act according to an ethic?


    I can be wrong, but I believe I know were you come from: you're just upset at the idea of not being able to "have it all" for free. The idea that you should pay for having something must make you crazy, mustn't it?
    But, if you think of it, if those profiles did not exist, you'd have nothing to envy.

    Quote from viabcroce

    Maybe because the KPA (current) users are honest, admire and respect those who put their effort in creating great profiles, and act according to an ethic?


    That hits the nail on the head!
    And apart from that ... as soon as someone has downloaded all software, music, information from the internet for "free", he will notice that he can't download the monthly rent, the daily food, the electricity and so on.
    It's just plain stupid to ask for everything for free. Much better to respect others' work and pay for quality just as much as I would charge if it was my own work.


    'nuff said
    Martin


    PS: If you can order a collection of original 50-60 years old vintage amps for a bargain at Thomann ... give me a heads-up, man.

    Thank you!

    Good point.


    Probably the KPA can not capture the same sound quality form the amp to profile but it would be really close to it - not cloning it.
    However using a camcorder in cinema to capture a movie would also not be a "clone" - it does not have the same visual (and sound) quality and you would probably agree that its quality would be way worse than the quality of the KPA to "simulate" the amps sound - but this would still be illegal.

    Quote


    Because of this i hope that Christoph or the company - Kemper - will never add a copy protection to the .kipr profile files in any way.
    Sorry, I miss the logic here.

    Mhhh... again, strange logic from a person who has till now
    stated how illegal\immoral is to steal someone else's work, don't you
    think?

    Yeah i know. Don't search for any logic here ;) I was just writing this thread from different perspectives or opinions people are having to ease expressing those thoughts or perspectives.


    Quote


    Mhhh... I see several possible answers here:

    Yes you are right.


    Although on this you are wrong:

    Quote

    I can be wrong, but I believe I know were you come from: you're just
    upset at the idea of not being able to "have it all" for free. The idea
    that you should pay for having something must make you crazy, mustn't
    it?


    But, if you think of it, if those profiles did not exist, you'd have nothing to envy.

    I have everything what i need - a beer right now ;) - the world is fine - i don't have to own the world. No dictatorship here 8o
    What the hell do i want to do with ~2000 profiles? Playing a note switching the profile and play the next note? Or being confused because i have too many profiles in my KPA and really need to have that editor people are requesting for all the time to label them better?
    No way i don't need that - i don't need it all.
    I even don't need any cleans. My neck pickup or tone control on my guitar are wasted too ;) ... I again totally agree with your last sentence. Thanks for your post

    Quote from tobi

    Probably the KPA can not capture the same sound quality form the amp to profile but it would be really close to it - not cloning it.
    However using a camcorder in cinema to capture a movie would also not be a "clone" - it does not have the same visual (and sound) quality and you would probably agree that its quality would be way worse than the quality of the KPA to "simulate" the amps sound - but this would still be illegal.

    Look, the concept of "illegal" is related to a law, not to common sense. It's not a matter of quality. A movie is protected by a law, hence to make (bad or good) copies of it is illegal. But there's no law that protects sounds (again, the noise of a Harley Davidson).
    There're real amps out there that sound like other amps, just because they're identical internally. This is not illegal, because putting a resistor of X ohm in parallel with a condenser of Y farad followed by a blue LED is not a concept which can be protected by any "ownership". Most amps around here are based
    on the same 100 year-old concepts, because this knowledge has become - de facto and legally - a shared knowledge. You can't sue someone who wrote a book because "you copyrighted the alphabet", for example. And you can't copyright or patent the bread, or the beer. If I brew a beer which testes and smell identical to another beer there's no illegality, because yo can't patent the taste of a beer ( or of a toothpaste for what it matters).
    So, with so many examples in the world (we can easily find many others) I wonder why you're obsessed with just profiles!?

    Quote

    Yeah i know. Don't search for any logic here ;)
    I was just writing this thread from different perspectives or opinions
    people are having to ease expressing those thoughts or perspectives.

    But you can't collect any kind of thoughts about a subject and hope to end up with something which still makes sense. There's nothing like a "universal knowledge", because "the knowledges" (?) are controversial with each others... Goedel has taught us something!



    Quote

    Yes you are right.


    Although on this you are wrong:I have everything what i need - a beer right now ;) - the world is fine - i don't have to own the world.
    No way i don't need that - i don't need it all.

    So where does the following come from?

    Quote

    Because
    of this i hope that Christoph or the company - Kemper - will never add a
    copy protection to the .kipr profile files in any way.


    Why shouldn't it be allowed to just copy/share a "commercial" kipr file with the community?

    I hope this doesn't get 100 pages long. I will only say this:
    It has been discussed at length (and widely agreed upon) here in the community, that if somebody feels he wants to be compensated for the efforts it takes to profile an amp properly he has every right to charge for it.
    Only because the technology enables us to make profiles in a (relatively) very short time it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be free.
    Commercial rigs have been in existance since nearly one year.
    And it speaks of the high ethics among the KPA users that NOT ONE commercial profile has been shared freely up to now. That means that the community wholly respects the respective creator's wish for compensation.


    It was on another forum when I was approached privately to share one of Andy's profiles because this amp was only available in a bundle that the Guy wasn't willing to buy as a whole.
    I refused and advised him to approach Andy privately.

    I was taught that just because you can doesn't mean you should. Even suggesting in this thread that commercial rigs should be shared displays a shameless lack of ethics.


    Just stick with the free rigs if you don't want to pay. So far, I've managed to "get by" on rig exchange profiles. There are plenty of us users who are sharing our own profiles freely.


    bd

    viabcroce what you are saying is pretty valuable. i was exactly after that when starting the start.


    you're right that sound is not protected by patents. but could this change? nevermind!

    Quote from viabcroce

    So where does the following come from?


    Quoted
    Because
    of this i hope that Christoph or the company - Kemper - will never add a
    copy protection to the .kipr profile files in any way.

    Yeah this is a little bit of context and it is not too easy to explain for me.... let's say:
    i don't dare to think of if that could happen. amp manufactures could maybe sue kemper or the commercial profile makers to pay license fees for copying or using their sound or even not allowing it anymore - if such a law would/could come.
    i mean in todays ages it is getting quite "strange" with patents. there is apple sueing samsung for having smartphones with "round corners" (beside other points) like the iphone has. how bad is that? or were big farmer industry companies have patents for seeds to grow potatoes of a specific kind. how bad is that? but let us not go into that any further

    Quote from musicman65

    Even suggesting in this thread that commercial rigs should be shared displays a shameless lack of ethics.

    if you are talking to me: i did and do not suggest that. i was only asking

    Quote

    Why shouldn't it be allowed to just copy/share a "commercial" kipr file with the community?".

    Quote

    I was taught that just because you can doesn't mean you should.

    talking about "ethic"....wouldn't this stick to everything then? (mean using the kemper to profile other amps sounds; why buying the KPA and use its profile of "the" amp instead of the getting the real one (amp))


    let us stop this thread. (don't answer it) it is too hard to discuss about that in a) a foreign language and b) in written form and c) it is getting too twisted. at least i don't feel comfortable expression myself - people are getting me wrong - this or the other way.


    honestly better jump on my other post ;)

    Looks Like this got covered Pretty well....



    FWIW, when I get My act together,
    I plan on profiling not Just Tube amps, but Rare Tubes themselves,
    with the Help of My emerysound Microbaby.


    Western Electric 6V6s anyone? :P


    And probably a Fairchild 660 & 670. :P
    -this will cost Me considerably, I might add. :P

    "Every Coin Has 3 Sides" - Rae

    Quote from tobi


    i mean in todays ages it is getting quite "strange" with patents. there is apple sueing samsung for having smartphones with "round corners" (beside other points) like the iphone has. how bad is that? or were big farmer industry companies have patents for seeds to grow potatoes of a specific kind. how bad is that? but let us not go into that any further

    talking about "ethic"....wouldn't this stick to everything then? (mean using the kemper to profile other amps sounds; why buying the KPA and use its profile of "the" amp instead of the getting the real one (amp))

    LOL
    This is getting hilarious!
    It seems there's something preventing you brain to ASSIMILATE the point:


    sounds


    can't


    be


    copyrighted\patented



    (Now, slowly, repeat after me:


    sounds


    can't


    be


    copyrighted\patented


    as many times as you need)



    Now, point # 2 (this is a bit harder, but with some effort you can do it):


    object design can be, under certain circumstances, be copyrighted\patented.



    Finally, the hardest part (not sure you can do it):


    sounds


    are


    not


    design


    objects

    (Repeat as above)


    FYI and FWIW, Harley Davidson were not able to patent the sound of their motorbikes.


    Hope the above clears you moral doubts! :thumbup:

    Yes and even if they tried to copyright sounds it would be impossible to enforce. For example if I sing one of my songs and use my best Frank Sinatra voice I could not be sued for using his 'voice'. Is it the young Frank or the old Frank? Frank after a few drinks? etc. The possibilities are endless.

    Quote from viabcroce

    Mhhh... I see several possible answers here:


    Maybe because not many Italians, Russians or Greeks have yet bought profiles?

    That is incredibly ignorant and racist of you Gianfranco....the turkish internet network creates far more illegal torrents etc....also China anyone?!???? The truth is, and I feel you should address this, is that ALL over the world piracy is rife... :thumbdown:

    Quote from lucky

    That is incredibly ignorant and racist of you Gianfranco


    Being Gianfranco Italian himself (as I am) and knowing him, I believe it was intentionally hironic, a couple of good buddies of us here are Greek (nobody's perfect :D )... Don't take it too seriously, we are a bunch of MOFO with some weird sense of humor... It's all ok... :thumbup::thumbup:

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff