A thought about Amp Profiles...

    IMHO is it easy to create great profiles in case you have all this:
    - a great sounding amp
    - a great sounding cabinet
    - one or more microphones
    - the right mic placement
    - a decent mic pre amp
    - a large room
    - the option to profile loud
    - some time
    (all the above must fit together)


    If anybody is able to create a great recorded tone out of the amp - then let everything as it is and just profile.


    I spend most of the time (even when I create a LOT of profiles from one amp) to find this best setup first.


    Normally I create 20-30 profiles (clean and distorted) just to find the best mic & mic placement - after this is it just "some work" - especially when the amp is complicated (e.g. the Diezel VH4) - I profiled this amp about 300 times - some 120 were selected for the pack.

    (All trademarks are trademarks of their respective owners, which are in no way associated or affiliated with soundside.de)


    Great Profiles --> soundside.de

    To answer your question Lance, this was an admittedly awkward way to start a conversation about getting the best results from profiling (I was just ribbing you - your sauce is fine). I will share what I've learned so far:


    1) Most times, when a profile doesn't seem to be 'getting there', I can pull up a few tried and true cabs that magically seem to make everything sound better (this brings to mind the ongoing debate about how the amps & cabs interact). The obvious disadvantage is that you loose some of the uniqueness of the particular amp's sound.


    2) I have found that pre-EQ can do wonders for many overdriven profiles by controlling what frequencies get pushed farthest into distortion.


    3) Many clean profiles can be morphed into killer gain OD amps! (sometimes will need to cut some lows out or boost some lower mids with pre-EQ).


    4) I have had pretty good luck mic'ing certain cabs from the back or at really strange angles to get some 'special effect'/'unique character' sounds for interesting interludes during a 'not so exciting' song. 8)


    5) Although I know it's against the rules, I have used some *mild* compression on certain Clean & OD profiles to achieve a smoother, more expressive feel without so much distortion (if you try to use too much you will get 'busted' by Mr. Kemper, who is living inside the KPA!) 8)


    So I guess the bottom line for me is - I am very happy with the myriads of profiles I use/have tweaked, regardless whether they sound exactly like the original amps. I tend to be more concerned about the 'playability' of the sound than the actual sonics, because it effects how and what I choose to play.


    Your Thoughts/Tips...

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Edited once, last by Radley ().

    One thing I have found different about the way the KPA profiler interprets the sound versus micing a live cab is, that when the slightest amp eq change is made, it has a large effect on the KPA profile, where making that slight amp eq change on a live miced amp is more subtle.


    I have been profiling my Friedman Brown Eye (again) for days, and am getting a great non-fizzy tone, but there is always an abundance of low frequency that has to be carved out with all my 4x12 hi-gain profiles due to the fact that I tend to profile with my amp's eq's generally at 4 or less. This does lead to excess bass energy which I sculpt to fit the profile, but the mid's and high's are much smoother and like-a-record.

    I recommend taking your favorite profiles, and mixing-in your KPA with records you are familiar with, and hearing how either too-bright or too-bassy many profiles are, and to get a reference what great recorded tone should sound like.

    Quote from miles

    One thing I have found different about the way the KPA profiler interprets the sound versus micing a live cab is, that when the slightest amp eq change is made, it has a large effect on the KPA profile, where making that slight amp eq change on a live miced amp is more subtle.


    Same here, Miles.

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Quote from Radley


    Same here, Miles.


    I have not experience this so far but if that's the case the profiling is not working as it should. Since you Radley are a beta tester, have you informed Kemper about it?


    Have you made tests by doing A/B comparison clips? I always do this to make sure. Sometimes what seemed to sound different at first audition it did not when doing the A/B tests. Hearing memory is quite unreliable for this kind of things.

    The tonestack of the Kemper have a lot wider range than any amp, is normal that the changes are more dramatic. The tonestack is NOT profiled

    "Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" Serghei Rachmaninoff


    Profiling an amp is the same as Micing up an amp, that produces very accurate results.
    therefore, there is no winners, and there is no hard rules.
    anyone can set up an amp and put a microphone to it, this we all know, and im sure have tried.
    why the results done come, well lets look at some facts.
    -Is the mic level/gain stage set correctly
    -are the cables your using of good connectivity (important here) use neutrik where possible.
    -Most home made profiles have whats called expulsion/Proximity effect. this is where the air of speaker has not had time to deliver sonically to the physical room/mic and carries some nasty characteristics
    -Is the amp in a different room, (THIS is a MUST) else your comparing an "amp in the room tone" to a recorded tone. - and we all know this carries a different mojo.
    -The sound you have created, IF (a) it compares to the amp then great, if (b) it does not, how did you refine. - I find it works best to play hard chords and light strokes to even out the dynamics
    -If you are clear that the refine process is cool, then its simply a case of mic is in wrong position, as this is what the Kemper will pickup on the most and therefore is what you hear, just like a real recording, so therefore move the mic around more, further away, clear the proximity effect, and try to capture what you want to hear. (THIS does take time)


    However if your still reading this, then as I said anyone can do this.. right? - absolutely. but try to bear a few things in mind.


    -SM57 Mic (everyone has one) - this is a mid range mic, it pushes and emphasis this (fixx) on a lot of amps if used alone, and not everyones cup of tea. - HERE you need to be careful, because its a "mid mic" therfore adjust your amp to cut this (unless you have a studio EQ or other means to cut it) to compensate for the extra.
    -Ribbon mics, are often preferred but these provide more range, and can create a low end that is not particually pretty. - a lot of modern mics come with roll offs. - use this from 100Hz downwards, adn it will improve the mic response massively when it comes to capture the cab. (likewise use a Studio EQ or submixer or whatever you can use if you dont have one) - OR you can use the Bass/Mid/Trebble etc in the KPA profile screen to adjust before profile.
    -Multi mics gets complex because of Phase issues and other mix/match parameters, and requires a submixer in order to fee duel mics to a single output. - but always start with one before going this route.
    -Rear Micing (My personal favorite with a 121) - this works like a charm, and really helps deliver the "room" sound along with the profile. and helps give a 3D approach to it all.
    -EQ - This is your best friend, Sometimes you can have the "amp in room sound perfect" but when profiling are like, Oh thats not what i hear, - Its because the mics used are creating a new freq range that you are unaware off. or the room is not good at capturing those freq. - so use an EQ where you can, to get rid of any unwanted disturbances and to sweeten to taste (this also takes time)
    -Pre's - of course not forgetting these, some Pre's have added colour again that you are not aware off. - a good pre will be transparent and lets the natural range through successfully.


    On average it takes me about 12 hours to mic an amp successfully. using 3 mics, - bearing in mind I do multi amps at the same time. and never profile on the same day as micing, unless I am short for time. - as we all know.. "that will do" attitude, and then regret it the next day.


    So in short, Profiling is an art form, the same as Playing. - Yes anyone can do it, and its obvious that they can. - but how well is a different chapter.


    For the record, The rig exchange can produce some steller and rock solid profiles._really_ - and its always a good place to start, For myself, I dont ever claim to be "better" than anyone else at what I do. - I just happen to offer them with my own style, some will dig this, some wont. - As many can confirm. I always offer people to try before they buy, either via the exchange or the free rig packs that are available.- and buy if you dont find anything you like.


    Radly - if you are experiencing some difficulties, then feel free to shoot me a PM, and can perhaps help with any questions you have. - Im sure your PLENTY competent in doing this anyway. - but a lot of the pro players I deal with really dont have any idea on how to go about it, after-all, why should they?


    Peace and Love to all.
    A

    A44 - Thanks for your input (and everyone else). I am good at getting profiles that are well-suited for my playing style & touch, but I am certainly not on your level of complexity. I am very happy there are guys like you who 'take it to the max' and show what all can be accomplished with the KPA profiling!


    One thing I really dig about the Kemper: Many times you can take a crappy amp or pedal with so-so distortion and ridiculously high noise levels and when you're done profiling, you have something that sounds much better than the original... better/smoother overdrive and substantially less noise and hum. I have had this happen enough times that I have started profiling most of the equipment I own, because you can end up with some real gems from even lame beginnings...

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Quote from Radley

    A simple answer - Any of us who care about the quality of profiles we post will self-edit, no? That means we will not post profiles that don't pass our personal sonics test - this includes Armin and And44. I have *hundreds* of profiles I have done that I love & use, but I have just as many that fell flat - if you prefer to believe it is all operator error on my part, be my guest, but keep in mind: The Kemper was designed for people like you and me, not people who happen to have an idealized setup for profiling like Armin and And44...

    Did I suggest it was user error?? Dont believe so, so dont know why you would think that. I only suggested asking for tips if youre having issues.

    I have posted numerous suggestions/ideas for getting good profiles, and for attaining a more substantive understanding of how the profiling process works... just hoping for some more comments, enlightenment... As a beta tester, I cannot speak specifically of future software ~ I can only say that I like the direction...

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Edited once, last by Radley ().

    And yes, I would say there is still a lot of mystery in what causes some profiles to be easier/better than others, but therein lies the challenge, no?

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Edited 2 times, last by Radley ().

    I thought there was a mystery but then when I use Andy's patches they are consistently GREAT.


    So I did the obvious, I PM's Andy44 and ASKED him what I could do with my gear to make it sound better.


    The few 5 star ones I got on my own profiles are the direct result of one very simple suggestion of his.


    (let's count how many responses beg me for this info) Again, it was his advice based on MY available gear. It will be different for different people.


    It's an art. and that he can do this consistently with different gear shows his mastery of micing amplifiers in a studio.


    And yet you are rather careful not to share it ~ I thought the idea was to share whatever tips we have found that work...


    I hope to be posting some new profiles of certain Mesa, Marshall, and Fender amps I have recently acquired and modded to my liking in the next month or so... :thumbup:


    Keep On Rockin'...

    All modelers known to man 8o

    Quote from Radley


    And yet you are rather careful not to share it ~ I thought the idea was to share whatever tips we have found that work...

    I always share my methods when I upload a rig that I created from scratch.



    I didn't include it here because I didn't want anyone to think there was some magical tip that was gonna do it for them.


    I doesn't help if someone says use this expensive mic and all you have is the very common SM57, and even then you don't put it at the same angle and distance, have the same quality wire, same preamps, etc.


    It's very individualistic.



    I use 2 mics:


    TLM 103 @ 8" from face--->LA 610---->y cable into Kemper. Settings on the UA? Darned if I remember. I used my ears. Comp was on.
    SM57@45 degree angle to edge of cone on grill->Chameleon 7602->same y cable into Kemper. Had the EQ off. No phase set. Matched volume.


    The amp was about 3 feet from any wall. Swart AST and Tungsten Crema Wheat.

    "I use 2 mics:


    TLM 103 @ 8" from face--->LA 610---->y cable into Kemper. Settings on the UA? Darned if I remember. I used my ears. Comp was on.
    SM57@45 degree angle to edge of cone on grill->Chameleon 7602->same y cable into Kemper. Had the EQ off. No phase set. Matched volume.


    The amp was about 3 feet from any wall. Swart AST and Tungsten Crema Wheat."


    -------------


    Thanks DB ~ Was this a clean or OD profile?

    All modelers known to man 8o

    It was Clean and Crunch.


    My initial issue was the SM wasn't cutting it for me and then the TLM was creating too much phasing as I had it out. I had it at 3', then 5', then 8' and it just wasn't working. Andy suggested 8" and putting the LA610 in the -15db pad.


    Less phasing (less thin sounding), great sound (seemed roomier), the TLM mic handled it with the padding.


    He may have suggested trying the SM in the back to see which I preferred, but I didn't get very creative.

    Great thread guys! Andy, db9091 - thanks for sharing some of your 'secret sauce' with us. Im planning to profile a couple of the amps I have - my biggest issue being the lack of a sound-treated recording platform. I have a few cheap condensers and a couple of workhorse guitar mics ... nothing as fancy as the Royers. I also have half-decent pres - will give it a whirl - and report back with profiles if Im satisfied with the results.


    Cheers!

    Quote from Radley

    the results were very ordinary and generic


    because:

    Quote from Radley

    5) Although I know it's against the rules, I have used some *mild* compression on certain Clean & OD profiles to achieve a smoother, more expressive feel without so much distortion (if you try to use too much you will get 'busted' by Mr. Kemper, who is living inside the KPA!)


    Why follow rules if those rules lead to 'ordinary and generic' results?


    Quote from and44

    and there is no hard rules.


    Yes!


    Quote from and44

    EQ - This is your best friend, Sometimes you can have the "amp in room sound perfect" but when profiling are like, Oh thats not what i hear, - Its because the mics used are creating a new freq range that you are unaware off. or the room is not good at capturing those freq. - so use an EQ where you can, to get rid of any unwanted disturbances and to sweeten to taste (this also takes time)
    -Pre's - of course not forgetting these, some Pre's have added colour again that you are not aware off. - a good pre will be transparent and lets the natural range through successfully.


    Yes!


    Why focus on 'accurate' or 'neutral' profiles of a mic'd amp when the biggest complaint about such profiles is they don't sound like an 'amp in the room'?


    Use EQ, compression, room mics and whatever it takes to get to get a profile that sounds like YOU want and not what your mic captures.