Volume Changes...Sending me Loopy

    Dear All,


    I'd be grateful with some help as I've got lost in KPA output menu :wacko:
    Please bear with me as I try and explain...
    I put in a recent feature request asking if the the X slot could be allocated as a stereo send in the same way as the Mod slot (Monitor out=Mod L, Direct Out = Mod R)
    [ http://kemper-amps.com/forum/i…page=Thread&threadID=8668 ]
    I can't seem to find the documentation for it, but I've read here that 'Monitor out' is set to +12db hotter than other outputs.


    My Question:
    When the loop in Mod slot is set to OFF and the output is set to Monitor out=Mod L, Direct = Mod R, I can match the levels by reducing Monitor out by 12db. No problem
    However... when I turn the (stereo) loop on in the mod slot, the volume of 'direct out' drops by several dbs and is no longer equal to Mon out. I switch the loop off and I'm back to previous levels. Engaging the loop seems to drop the volume of Direct send.


    Can someone explain why this happens as I'm clearly missing something here. As well as Mod L/R I've tried this with all the other options and Mon out / Direct send are matched in level (when I reduce Mon out by 12dbs.) The difference remains the same. I've monitored this in sound forge as well as using my ears. You can see the difference in wave forms and see it on the input level meters... My head hurts...


    Can anyone help explain this? I'm trying to organise my pedals with a stereo output signal and this has stumped me...
    Cheers,
    Brett :thumbup:

    Suhr Classic Pro, Fender deluxe Strat & Baja Tele, Gibson ES335, Ibanez S Prestige 2170FW, Eastman AR371CE, Variax JTV > KPA > Patch bay inc. Strymons (Mobius, Timeline, Blue Sky), H9 Max, TC Triple Delay, & POD HD500 > Adam A7Xs

    Playing around some more with this it looks like (At least on my KPA) with:
    -A stereo loop engaged in the Mod slot
    -Output settings set to Mon out=Mod L, Dir Out=Mod R


    There's appears to be around a 20db difference between the two channels when used in this configuration and I had a hard time in general matching the output levels of Mon Out/Dir out when using them as a stereo pair.


    There's a lot going on with these output settings (Lots of multiple functions!) and I can't see anything in the latest manual regarding the different levels they appear to be set at.


    Anyone out there using the stereo out Mod L/Mod R pairings?
    Mmmmm this isn't the sexist of threads is it... :(

    Suhr Classic Pro, Fender deluxe Strat & Baja Tele, Gibson ES335, Ibanez S Prestige 2170FW, Eastman AR371CE, Variax JTV > KPA > Patch bay inc. Strymons (Mobius, Timeline, Blue Sky), H9 Max, TC Triple Delay, & POD HD500 > Adam A7Xs

    Slightly OT, these are the technical data I've had and put in the wiKPA:




    Master L and R Outputs: XLR balanced, ¼ inch TS unbalanced
    with ground lift; max output level: XLR +22 dBu, TS +16 dBu.



    Monitor Output: ¼ inch TS unbalanced with ground lift; max
    output level: +16 dBu.



    [If Monitor Out has been recently changed please let me know, I'll update the data sheet accordingly.]

    I can't but agree :) Not only for the KAP's technical potential to be completely exposed to users, but as long as the wiKPA is supposed to be a useful and reliable - although unofficial, but supported by Headquarters - tool for everyone interested in the KPA world.

    Thanks chaps,


    The latest manual mentions a couple of uses of combining Monitor out with direct out but I can't anything on balancing the levels of these two outputs.
    e.g P13 1.7 Manual
    "Set the Monitor Output to “Mod Left” and the Direct Output to “Mod Right”. Both Monitor and Direct Output form a new stereo sum, containing everything but Delay and Reverb. Now you can send two stereo sums to the front mixing desk, where the Delay and Reverb signals are separated from the non-reverberant effects (X and MOD)"
    Also - regarding the tech specs from the current manual:
    Monitor Output: 1/4 inch TS unbalanced with ground lift, max output level: +16dBu
    Direct Output/Send: 1/4 inch TS unbalanced with ground lift, max output level: +16dBu


    Direct send appears to be lowered when used in an effects loop and Monitor out generally appears to be 12db hotter than Dir Out (And around 20db higher when Direct Out is used with it in a loop). Be great if these two levels could be automatically matched when assigned as a stereo pair - I can't think of any reason why they should be different when assigned together. Maybe there is a reason... beats me. For the time being I'll go back to the good ole X slot mono send loop until I can get this other feature to work.

    Thanks again for the replies Gents.

    :thumbup:

    Suhr Classic Pro, Fender deluxe Strat & Baja Tele, Gibson ES335, Ibanez S Prestige 2170FW, Eastman AR371CE, Variax JTV > KPA > Patch bay inc. Strymons (Mobius, Timeline, Blue Sky), H9 Max, TC Triple Delay, & POD HD500 > Adam A7Xs

    Brattcave,


    I have had similar issues.


    I attempted to assign as follows:
    Main Left --->Monitor Out
    Main Right--->Direct Out


    The gains where vastly different and Monitor Out sounded way louder and more full. I decreased Monitor Out to balance with Direct Out but noticed that they didn't decrease in volume together when turning down the Main volume. Monitor Out being set lower would reach 0 while Direct Out still had volume.


    Also, the Monitor Out EQ only affects Monitor Out (Main Left) and Direct Out is unaffected. They need to be treated as a seperate stereo pair with Monitor EQ affecting both Left and Right equally through Monitor Out controls.


    bd

    Brattcave, have you been using the ducking parameter in that X-slot before you inserted the effectsloop?

    www.audiosemantics.de
    I have been away for quite a while. A few years ago I sold my KPA and since then played my own small tube amp with a Bad Cat Unleash. Now I am back because the DI-profile that I made from my amp sounds very much convincing to me.

    Quote from fretboardminer

    Brattcave, have you been using the ducking parameter in that X-slot before you inserted the effects loop?

    That's an interesting question but no - I've made sure ducking isn't active on any slot. In fact I have all the slots turned off, except the loop and all the volumes set to zero. I think it's just the case that these outputs have a few different uses and at present they need some sort of 'level correction' to kick in when being assigned different jobs. E.g when loop is active and Mod R & Mod L are assigned, then link output level. I can't think why one output in a stereo pair would be set hotter than it's counterpart. I could be wrong of course... 8)

    Suhr Classic Pro, Fender deluxe Strat & Baja Tele, Gibson ES335, Ibanez S Prestige 2170FW, Eastman AR371CE, Variax JTV > KPA > Patch bay inc. Strymons (Mobius, Timeline, Blue Sky), H9 Max, TC Triple Delay, & POD HD500 > Adam A7Xs

    Musicman,
    Yep I noticed this as well, in this configuration it looked like 'Monitor out' was 12 db hotter than 'Direct out'. I hadn't looked at the EQ - that's a good catch. I'm not one to shout "bug" but under the circumstances... I might start to whisper it...

    Suhr Classic Pro, Fender deluxe Strat & Baja Tele, Gibson ES335, Ibanez S Prestige 2170FW, Eastman AR371CE, Variax JTV > KPA > Patch bay inc. Strymons (Mobius, Timeline, Blue Sky), H9 Max, TC Triple Delay, & POD HD500 > Adam A7Xs

    Quote from Brattcave

    That's an interesting question but no - I've made sure ducking isn't active on any slot. In fact I have all the slots turned off, except the loop and all the volumes set to zero.

    There is a bug that leaves previous ducking parameters active. That's why I was asking if you had a ducking there before you inserted the loop. To be totally shure you might insert some other effect, set the ducking to zero, store and then insert the loop again.


    I had such a problem with a mono loop in the Mod slot. (It is already reported and will be corrected in future FW.) Not very likely that this is the root of your problem here, but I think it is worth a try to exclude it.

    www.audiosemantics.de
    I have been away for quite a while. A few years ago I sold my KPA and since then played my own small tube amp with a Bad Cat Unleash. Now I am back because the DI-profile that I made from my amp sounds very much convincing to me.

    Thanks Fretboardminer - no there hasn't been any ducking active previously in any of the slots. The rig I started out on with this problem dates back since before that feature was introduced - and I've not used it since then here. I tried it on different rigs just to make sure. I wasn't aware of this bug though - cheers for the heads up!

    Suhr Classic Pro, Fender deluxe Strat & Baja Tele, Gibson ES335, Ibanez S Prestige 2170FW, Eastman AR371CE, Variax JTV > KPA > Patch bay inc. Strymons (Mobius, Timeline, Blue Sky), H9 Max, TC Triple Delay, & POD HD500 > Adam A7Xs

    Please everybody who experience a too loud monitor output, do a System Reset.


    Hold SYSTEM for 10 seconds, while you switch on the unit at the same time.


    Tell me if it solves the problem.

    a bit late, but the 10-second reset fixed the problem for me. Monitor & Main outs are now at the same levels

    Is it correct for monitor out using the master volume that in the output screen monitor volume should be infinity so as soon as you turn the knob you get volume?

    "More Guitar in the Monitors" :thumbup: