The gain stage of most tube amps are about as neutral as the Profiler, with little coloration.
So they act as a booster as well.
Therefore your perceptions are not exactly right.
Exceptions are the Marshall JCM800 and Plexi.
There is too much talk behind this aspect and no real evidence.
Never heard of any Profiler user making the easy test while profiling to check for different colors of the gain controls.
I was describing my experience with some profile sets. So I am trying to reconcile my experience with what you are saying here.
By unity do you mean unity gain over the input level? Or unity as in a standard RMS or peak volume level?
I have many profiles and some are much louder than others. It is possible to boost the level of a quieter profile in the parameters of the profile as I described and I have done this and the result is a louder profile, not clipping. So clearly, the KPA has headroom to cope with boosting in this way. Some profiles may be boosted perhaps after profiling by vendors. Another possibility is that clean profiles are not as compressed as profiles taken at higher gain levels, so subjectively, they are louder even though at peak levels (eg in attack transients) may be more nearly similar in level.
Yes, I mean unity RMS level on the output. The RMS is true for distorted as well as clean profiles.
The balance between clean and distorted Rigs is then set by Clean Sense individually.
And yes, the Profiler has a lot of headroom. It is especially necessary for the peaks of a clean guitar.
We are on a thread about Kabinet and loudness. It is not necessary to boost the volumes of the profiles, to reach the maximum rating of the Kabinet. This is done by the controls as described.
Display MoreThat is true - lots of quieter profiles out there. You can boost the volume of overly quiet profiles in several ways. Eg - you can get into the amplifier parameters and boost the volume there and play with other parameters like compression if you need to. Save your edits and you can match the volume of profiles that are too quiet for you to the louder ones.
It seems quite common for professional profilers to do a profiling run with different gain levels on the amp they are profiling, starting with gain/volume pots down at 9 o'clock and gradually turning up for the progressively dirtier profiles. The result of profiling this way is loud dirty profiles and very much quieter clean profiles.
If you are setting up a Performance with a set like this, you will likely want to boost the volume of the quiet clean profiles to better balance the levels.
This is not exactly true, as mentioned above.
Quiet Profiles are not a problem.
And.. it is not possible to create quiet or loud Profiles. Every Profile is set to a unity level during the Profiling process.
The user has no influence to that whatsoever.
FWIW, when I first spent time with my Kemper, i chose a number or profiles and immediately set to using them at rehearsals. Having levelled them all for my needs, with the loudest I use falling just short of clipping the output, I ALWAYs find professional and RigManager content to be significantly quieter.
There might already be untapped headroom in the profiles which hold back the full output.
All factory profiles and commercial profiles are set to mostly standard levels, that is Amp Volume and Rig Volume at Noon (+- zero dB).
There is no need to push the Rigs to just below clipping.
By using max volume on the Power Cabinet chickenhead the headroom of both devices are perfectly matched.
Then use Power Amp Boost at +6 dB or more, and dial your required volume by using „Monitor Volume“. You can easily reach (and exceed) the 200W rating by this. Hence the Wattage Meter in the Kemper Kone Menu.
The OP might have missed to check Monitor Volume. If it was e.g. 12 dB lower, you reach only a 16th of the power, that is 12.5W only.
FYI, after pushing the Power Amp Boost all the way up, the powered Kabinet was plenty loud enough to be heard by our loud drummer behind his kit.
Per recommendations that I've read, I had the Kabinet turned all the way up and controlled the overall volume using the Master volume on my unpowered toaster, which I did not have to max out.
Hi!
You did not explicitly mention that you have checked Monitor Volume, that is only controlled relatively to Master Volume. Therefore I assume that the Monitor Volume is set pretty low, which might have been the problem.
The Monitor Volume is visible on the Kemper Kone page.
My two cents:
All your sounds do sound very right to me.
Yes, your initial example has some boomy palm mute low end, but that is natural.
However, the bass drum in your drum track was much more boomy!
It is a normal step to attenuate and control the palm mute energy in a mix, by applying a low shelf.
- 6 dB is not a shameful value at all when fitting a guitar amp into a mix.
For balancing your sound, try different pickup settings and adjust the Amp Definition control to your liking.
CK
Display MoreQuoted by the great mr. Kemper, that already made my day, thanks!
My source is Analogman:
http://www.analogman.com/ts9.htm (section on modding the OD808)
https://www.analogman.com/tshist.htm
I actually had a lengthy email conversation with them when I first read their statement of the OD808 having the same circuit as the TS10. They confirmed it numerous times. I though the source was legit.
The OD808 uses an operational amplifier, as the TS10, while the TS808 uses a transistor. This is probably what AnalogMan refers to.
Sonically, it doesn't make a difference.
While both the TS808 and OD808 feature roughly the same output resistors, the TS10 (and TS9) output resistors differs significantly.
That makes the difference.
The AnalogMan page is more designed like a wine tasting. It doesn't go deeper into technical details, which is fine.
Ask AnalogMan if the circuit is the same, but the resistor values are different.
There is another source going more detailed into techical and tonal differences:
http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/tstech/tsxtech.htm
We did listening tests and it would not be honest to state that we heard a difference between the TS808 and OD808. We did not.
The TS9 and TS10 are slightly brighter, but this can be achieved by increasing the tone control by a few degrees.
And I have assured you in the past that you don't
Just as a reminder (and for those who haven't watched):
You have sucessfully proven that the Klon Centaur blends over from an Overdrive to a fantasic transparent (pure) booster at low to zero gain settings, no distortion produced.
In combination with the internal conversion to 18 volts supply power it exceeds many analog devices on the market. The tone control still delivers shelving equalizer characteristics in this mode.
The Profiler goes beyond that. You can use any of our equalizer types in front of your amp, shape the sound with much more than just one tone control and boost into the amp with up to 24 dB.
In this thread however, it is about Overdrives in their distorting range and their tonal habits.
I can dig more into details if requested.
hi and thanks for the answer.
Never made any comparison, but it sounds like this to my ears. More like a layer on amp distortion.
And when I use them, even if I don’t push the gain I quickly get some kind of « artifacts » when the notes sustain. Happened with a lot of profiles (made by top tier guys like Bert etc). Some kind of high frequencies that sound more like noise than distortion.
I can assure you that you would get equal results with an equivalent analog setup.
Am I the only to not like the drives in the kemper?
They don’t act as regular drive pedal to me…
don’t know how to say it but they don’t « blend » with the amp profile like a pedal and a tube amp, to my ears it sound more like a « layer » of drive on the tone.Any one think the same?
We have played our overdrives and distortions for months and compared it to the analog counterparts, to check the authenticity.
Have you made a comparison too?
Really? I thought the Green Scream was modeled after the Maxon OD808 which is basically a TS10.
The differences between the TS and the OD are absolutely neglectable , while the TS9 and TS10 have modified resistors on the output, resulting in a slightly emphasized high end.
The Maxon is not basically a TS10.
Do you have different sources of information?
The green scream is REALLY good. A bit different and less versatile than Kemper drive. But great in it’s own right.
Kemper drive is more TS10 like. Green Scream more like the classic TS.
You can directly compare the Green Scream and an appropriate preset of the Kemper Drive.
You might find that there is no audible difference.
At the same settings, the output level might differ by a fraction of a dB.
Many years ago the kemper only had the green scream for that kind of drive. And it’s really really good. But the Kemper drive took things to a new level. The concept is brilliant. One ring to rule them all….
So i’d love one distortion pedal as versatile as the drive.
A good distortion before a clean amp , is just a different beast, than a distortion driving an already driven amp.
Late to the party, but some comments from me:
The Kemper Drive and Kemper Fuzz were possible as "One rule them all" models, because the several devices in Focus have a common architecture.
This is not the case for distortion pedals that are not part of the family of Overdrives or Fuzz.
Therefor I don't see a way to make a generic model, unfortunately.
Thank you for clearing that up!
I think I mostly notice it on the Treble Booster because I love how the TB brings up the high frequencies post amplifier. It does not work with every profile though. So I like to A/B it on/off to compare. But you always have a louder signal when it is ON. So it becomes hard to compare if it is really helping the tone or just sounds better because it is louder. Mostly, because my hearing is pretty bad.
You are perfectly set up for an A/B comparison, when you leave the Mix control to max and untouched.
Adjust the intensity of the Treble Booster by "Tone" and change Volume to compensate, if required.
A/B by switching the effect on and off.
That's how it's done in the analog world since decades.
CK
Here is the full story:
The Treble Booster belongs to the red coloured category of Distortions and Boosters.
Traditionally, distortions and boosters do not feature a mix control.
The reason for this are phase cancelations and other side effects, that would occur with a mix control.
Therefore we did not feature it either.
Later, fellow users requested a mix control for this category to be able to use the morphing as a „switch“. This is why we have added a mix control for this category. Soon after, it became obvious for this purpose, that the volume control has to be effected by the mix control as well, to fully blend every aspect of the booster effect when morphing the mix control.
The essence of this is: While a mix control is the usual „intensity“ parameter for modulations, delay and reverb, it is generally not appropriate for controlling the intensity of distortions and boosters for said reasons. It‘s fine for switching by Morphing still.
The Treble Booster is a special beast in this regard, as its intensity can still be controlled appropriately by the mix control, without producing phase cancelations etc.
The best way to adjust the Treble Booster‘s intensity however is to control it by its primary „Tone“ control, that is - behind the curtain - a mix control as well, and thus produces the same sonic result.
Thanks for the explanation. However, it doesen't seem to be really full range mode, because if you keep that Cab module off and change the imprints in the output section, it still affects the tone. So, that whole signal flow is still confusing me.
Yes, it might look a bit confusing.
Here is the full story. It‘s all about switched off cabinet and empty cabinet modules.
The crucial use case of the Profiler is feeding the full stack signal including virtual cabinet to the main output, while creating the amp signal without the virtual cabinet for the monitor output. That is for running a traditional speaker cabinet or the Kemper Kone/Kabinet.
„Monitor Cab Off“ is the key for that, it defeats the virtual cabinet for the monitor output in a global fashion. Since there is no major reasons to tap the signal without cab on other outputs than the monitor output, „Monitor Cab Off“ is the way to go. Therefore there is no real purpose for switching off the CAB module in the signalflow instead, affecting all outputs. Seen from that perspective, the CAB switch in the signalflow is a bit useless and misleading. Use „Monitor Cab Off““.
Direct Profiles have the CAB module empty (not off). The Profiler cannot distinguish between Direct Profiles e.g. for acoustic guitars or basses, and Direct Amp Profiles of guitar amps. The latter need a virtual guitar cab for the FOH, while the former don‘t. Also the Kone/Kabinet needs this distinction and will play either fullrange when CAB is empty and Imprint, when CAB is defined.
Please add a CAB for Direct Amp Profiles, even if you never use the CAB sound through the main outputs.
CK
This! I think that‘s usually the issue. Problem is that in my experience the studio monitors are much closer the PA/FOH sound than what comes out of the Kabinet (kinda self evident since you get the sound of mic‘ed cab). So I don‘t see much reason to „tune“ the profiles to the Kabinet, unless you use it as your main sound source on stage/rehearsal.
Yes, but that‘s only one side of the story.
You can of course set the Kabinet to Full Range and have the studio monitor or PA sound on the Kabinet as well.
For using imprints please check the following mandatory settings (Some aspects have been mentioned here already):
Check „Kemper Kone“ mode On
Check „Monitor Cab Off“ mode On
Don‘t switch off the „CAB“ in the signal flow.
For Direct Amp Profiles, add a CAB in case CAB is empty.
CK
This leads me to believe the Cabinet should be unaffected on the Main outs when "Monitor Cab Off" is selected.
There's another section that I'm unsure about on page 100:
Is this suggesting that if I have a merge profile, I need to separate the Direct Amp Profile from the Cabinet Profile to achieve what I want instead of using the Merged profile? I have a hard time understanding what issue this section is attempting to address.
Thanks in advance for any help or advice!
This section suggests about the opposite.
If you run a Direct Amp Profile *without* a cabinet existing, then you will have to establish a cabinet.
If you play Merged Profiles, then there is a cabinet existing, by definition.
And no action is needed from your side.
5.0
And you have both "Kemper Kone" switch and "Monitor Cab Off" switch activated?
I guess you have, because you can hear the differences between the imprints.
Have you switched off the Cabinet Module in the signal flow?
It is supposed to stay activated.
Still trying to dial in the Kemper Kab/Kone...Running it with my Powerhead...finding the V30 and Greenback 25 imprints are VERY bright. I have all of the settings/buttons correct....But there is a harsh bright -ice-picky tone form some of the imprints. I've tried Graphic EQ block, can't seem to find the right freq to "dial out"...also tried low-high pass filter...shelfing anything above 8900 HZ...Seems to be somewhere between 4 -5500HZ? Any suggestions? This is for high -gain profiles.. For instance, I also have a 1x12 V30 cab, and when I A/B the Kone to the reg cab (V-30 Imprint..) it is not even close....And it seems that the Green back 25 imprint has no "warmth" to it, sounds a little less harsh and bright than the V-30...I know thie Kone Kab won't be exact, but it is a bit "edgy- harsh on many of the imprints.. ... Suggestions? Is there a Parametric EQ setting within the blocks that allows me to selct frequencies to boost or cut? I'm not finding it..Is it there and I don't see it? I feel liek I'm so close to dialing it in, btut there's this ice -picky freq that is "painful" at any signifcant volume.. Thansk!
Hi!
What's your setting of the parameter "Directivity" ?
