Updated.
Haven't listened yet, but after the long update (took a bit more than I remember), the KPA rebooted and was in browser mode even though the chicken head knob was in Perform.
Moving to browser and back did not fix it, but moving to profile and then to perform worked.
Minor, but noteworthy.
I am just happy that he mentioned the Reverb engine and efx management first .... since selfishly, these are my top 1 and 2 "wants" 
I was just today wondering about the release version of the latest beta and musing on when the next major release might happen.
It is good to hear that CK says there is more on deck for our beloved KPA.
Sure. The floor-model was not on my mind when making the comment
That makes sense then 
The gap is almost non-existent. In the last 2 years I've sold a number of unpowered KPAs on Reverb and have never had a problem getting ~$1500 for them. I'm selling one now and I can't get an offer over $1250, with most $1100-1200. Insane...
But it's a little more evidence as to the KPAs perceived value -- or lack thereof.
This is a long way of saying the KPA2 (or new firmware) better "bring it."
Not sure what the KPA2 could "bring" to actually make the product worthy of a new design cycle.
Sure, the price of an existing model will decline with age; however, this is usually due to the fact that once the engineering and development cost is paid off, the company usually starts lowering the MAP on the product to increase sales further.
When I purchased my KPA, I believe that MAP was ~ $2200 for the non-power amp rack. A quick look around the web now shows MAP has been reduced to ~$1800. It is understandably difficult to sell a used item for only 17% below the price of a new one.
The X32 mixers were originally released at >$3000. MAP is around $2000. It doesn't mean that the product can't hold its own any more, it simply means they are selling more units for less money to maximize profit.
While I'd love a tablet app for tweaking and library management I hope the front panel remain fully functional on future models. I don't think I would have gotten a KPA if it was not possible to control almost as if it were an old amp and pedal-board. It's the same with my mixing consoles. I've got a Behringer X32-Rack that I use in places where there isn't space for anything bigger, but I reach for my M32R or A&H-SQ6 whenever I can. Physical faders are so much quicker and more accurate both when I have to make quick changes when mixing from stage while playing, and when I do FOH-mixing out front for other bands ... and this from a guy who do comp-sci for a living
Hi hedal,
Mixing from stage becomes quite impossible when the mixer can't be located next to you .... like if you are one of the front men. Making small changes between songs, or even within a song on a tablet that is mounted on your mic stand is really the only option IME..... but of course YMMV. I think that most people would rather mix on real faders; however, most bars don't have a dedicated FOH mixing position so you are left running back and fourth to side-stage mounted mixers. Personally, I would rather sit in the crowd with a 10" tablet drinking a tall one
For a KPA foot version, I just can't see having the massive number of controls on the front of the KPA today. I can see your point with respect to the normal "tube amp settings"..... but foot controllers? Even my friends with a massive pedal board literally never make changes to a specific foot controller in a live gig (nor did I when I had one). Why would a KPA floor version need to have specific efx slots in the chain modified live (outside of morphing)?. Sure, there should be a way of bringing parts of the chain in and out of the rig like the current foot controller does. I completely agree with that. EFX editing though?
From a cost standpoint, I also find it hard to believe you could reduce the price of the floor board version to be much less than the current rack version if you put all the physical controls back on it.
My own personal use model is that I don't change any settings at a gig other than things I can hook up to a pedal, or a button on my foot controller. Its really hard to do any tweaking between songs other than getting to the next rig/performance ... at least it is for me and my limited skill set
You’re clearly confused, but I’m glad you like my phallic interjections.
It's all good man
Software is not written in a language, but back in the day, adding non-code comments to tell whomever came after you to update the code what you were doing and why (whether that was your or someone else) was standard practice in my day. Not to mention naming variables was always something that played havoc if you didn't have naming conventions, not to mention two coders spoke different languages (granted I don't code any more). My guess is that is what he was referring to, so no need to have a clash of the coding egos and playing 'whose coding pe-nis is bigger', is there?
Thanks for the laugh
Yea, if you did any assembly or ladder logic work, then about the only way to decipher what was going on was the comments in the code .... assuming that someone had bothered to properly comment it of course.
What was true now, and has always been true, is that any coder looking at another coders software will immediately determine that it can't be fixed and must be entirely re-written.
Since flyingheelhook appeared to be using his coding pe-nis size to use as evidence that the Kemper software team should have an easy task to do a full featured editor, I felt it was fair game to point out that he was not the only phallic expert on the forum and that his specific phallic experiences were not necessary equivalent to those required for the current subject matter we are discussing. In less cryptic (and phallic) terms, I thought he was underestimating the difficulty of the task greatly.
In general, I refrain from criticizing other engineering groups. It just seems unprofessional.
You rarely hear one guitar player rip on another guitar players talent ..... at least it has been rare for me (and I have been around guitar players for a very long time). Again, it is just good etiquette for one professional to be polite to another professional.
While I am at it, please note that while the new editor Toast ME is a fantastic product, now there are people complaining about it as well. Different adapters don't work, this OS is supported, but this one is not, my computer does XYZ when I run it, etc, etc, etc.
Kemper can't afford to release a product which does any of these things. They must assume that such an editor will be used while performing and that any combination of front controls, foot controlls, or editor controls may come in simultaneously to their device. From an FMEA standpoint, this is a real PITA to do right.
To the Kemper software team ..... you guys do great work. Don't let anyone tell you different.
I've got a whole bin file to work with. Shouldn't be too hard. Took me a couple of years to re-write the Saab Trionic ECU but, that was because a lot was in broken Swedish variable declarations. Guessing a lot of this is going to be in broken German. If a company refuses to produce the productivity tools its user base asks for it is only for one of three reasons; 1: It doesn't have the skills in-house to produce beyond hobbyist (investment). 2: It doesn't think the cost would be of benefit, even though selling such a solution to existing or new users would add value to the offering in the marketplace and increase profitability (incompetent leadership) 3: It doesn't think that such a solution is necessary because people will just make do with what they're given (arrogance in a competitive market... see incompetent leadership).
I am going to ignore the tone of your comment, and suggest to others that they do as well.
As to the content of your comment, an editor exists. It is called "Toast ME". If you download it, you can use it for free. Sounds pretty good eh?
FYI, software is not written in a language that needs to be translated. It is written in code like C++, Java, etc, etc.
Today, ECU programming is almost exclusively performed in C. Back in the years the Trionic ECU was in its hey-day, it was common to use ladder logic and assembly. The 68332 that powered that ECU had an address space of 1Mb.
Now, if you are comparing that coding experience with a modern programming language (I have done both extensively), I would argue that you are grossly underestimating the work effort required for a good editor to be created.
Oh, I just remembered.....
I rack mount my Kemper rack, and own a foot controller. The one thing that bothers me about the Kemper connections is that the foot controller ethernet on the kemper side is NOT an Ethercon connection.
I made a patch panel on back of my rack and fixed this, but if CK would be so nice as to add an Ethercon connection on the next version ..... that would sure be great
I have already commented, but as an update .....
The real benefit for me though is an editor that I can make changes outside the device far quicker for set ups in advance of live shows so the wireless need is less of a necessity - but that's just me.
Just been looking at the digital mixers that are entirely ipad controlled...me likey!
Same page here.
At a gig, I want to press a button, and change tone to something I have already setup for that song/effect. I never tweak at a gig, and very rarely at practice.
I use my X32 Rack to play back the entire band and try out different guitar settings while playing with my "virtual band members". This lets me play a new rig in the context of the song I will REALLY be playing it in.
Maybe I am the only one that has this problem, but I find that a rig that sounds "super, God like, OMG I just want to scream" great all by itself, often times sounds more like "are you kidding me?, Wow ... that sounds like crap, OMG ... just shoot me now" when put into the context of the entire band playing through the actual PA.
This is just one of the MANY features of my digital mixer that I will never do without again.
I wouldn't mind a tablet or simple phone app for "tweaking while away from home" for a Kemper floor unit
I completely agree that any serious tweaking will be done at home with a full editor. Of course, per my above statement, the rig doesn't get blessed until it performs well in the mix
On the topic of a tablet based editor:
I think that everyone should start expecting that every embedded device will soon come with a tablet editing application. There will be varying degrees of how usable the device is WITHOUT a tablet; however, the trend will be pretty clear. Less physical controls, more tablet controls.
I was REALLY Leary of moving from my venerable Allen & Heath Mix Wizzard to my current X32 Rack. I mean really .... who had ever heard of a mixer with no faders!
I gotta tell you guys, I aint ever goin back to a physical console. I am completely hooked on the features I now have.
A good tablet application is a thing of beauty.
If you could use your PC or your tablet for editing and setup of the floor unit, you would have no reason to edit live at a gig (not that I ever touch my rig live anyway). If you are at home or in the studio, then editing on a large screen with control out the ying yang would be the way to go.
While I applaud the larger color screen of the Axe III, I must point out that the screen on my $150 Android tablet is larger, easier to read, and much higher quality. If I drop my android and break it, I will simply use my daughters iPad, or my wife's Android tablet .... or my bass player's ... etc, etc. Break that nice new screen on the Axe III and you are likely looking at a much bigger bill along with some time without your amp.
I personally don't see how to make a fully functional interface for a KPA on a foot controller. Anything I can imagine is simply crap when it comes to the failure mode analysis and usability.
Question....
Does anyone REALLY use the Helix front controls to do their setup?
The cost of a more simplified floor unit would be less than double that of the current Kemper floor pedal IMO. In fact, I think that the current floor pedal form factor is pretty close to what I would expect from the Kemper Floor Processor.
If that statement is accurate, then a $1300.00 street price would be completely possible (more than double that of the floor controller).
I think for the product to make sense, it needs to stand alone without the need of another Kemper unit. Sure, I can see it not being able to profile. That would bring the price down, but more importantly, it would differentiate it from the current product line as well.
I completely agree that the internal processing must remain identical. Rigs made with a full KPA need to sound exactly the same on the Kemper Floor Processor and maintain the same exact architecture for editing in order to take advantage of the current infrastructure (rigs, rig manager, and Toast ME).
I still think that little or no knobs on the unit is the way to go. A USB or MIDI editor would be the way to modify / setup the unit.
I never touch my KPA when I am performing. In fact, it sits on top of my rack mixer in the back of the stage.... out of sight and out of mind. My foot controller is my only interface when performing.
The problem with that design was that it attempted to be too cute by half (ie look like a Kemper).
What I like about the toast me application is that it attempts to show the architecture of the Kemper, not the front cover.
With more advanced features, it becomes more and more necessary to present users with a visual flow of how the feature interacts with the device.
Well, thats not exactly true - we do know that they have made it clear that they are not going to fix the underlying functionality that is preset management since apparently that contradicts the 'Kemper Philosophy'. Not sure why the 'Kemper Philosophy' of preset/file/data management has to be completely different than the standard norm, but what do I know.
Hey hook,
Can you elaborate on what you are saying here? I am not sure I understand.
I will agree that the current spinning wheel of death menu navigation needs some improvement, but as someone else mentioned, just making a sub menu for each type of effect would pretty much fix that silly problem ..... and I agree with you that this particular portion of the KPA is pretty bad.
I am not sure what you mean by "Kemper Philosophy' on this subject though.
I must also respectfully disagree with your assessment. I have yet to hear of any other user that has used both a Kemper and a Helix that has not given the tone award to the Kemper. If you do a bit of a look around the web, you can literally find a hundred such comparisons and do the math yourself.
Certainly, we of the tube amp purist would be the most discerning. Most of us can hear a difference; however, that doesn't mean the Helix is a toy. It is a fine piece of gear IMO. It is simply not equal to a Kemper to most people's ears and fingers.
Thus, I believe that a Kemper floor unit in the same price range as a Helix would do quite well indeed.
For a product selling for close to 2 thousand dollars in the U.S, I don't think it's too much to expect a decent processor that can handle a stomp profile and an amp profile at the same time. There are some really amazing pedals out there.
Hey Dean,
It isn't about the processor for most people. It is about the sound. I don't disagree that being able to profile a stomp would be a really really cool feature; however, I am not certain it is worth an entire product cycle.
In the end, everyone will eventually get a Kemper 2. The sad truth is that the major components inside the beast will eventually become obsolete. Keep in mind, this is likely still quite a few years off (I am guessing 5-7 actually). At that time, you can guarantee a new Kemper guys.
Currently, a live setup for your KPA would be (as a minimum):
KPA Rack ($1800)
KPA remote ($500)
Road Case ($100)
Total: $2400.00
Not a cheep system by any measure. Only the very dedicated are going to purchase at this price IMO. Sure, compared to a good tube amp and a bunch of pedals, it might be competitive; however, many will see that price and cringe.
A foot controller version of the KPA that could be sold for .... lets say $1200.00 instantly puts the product into a completely new marketing category. Cutting the price in half will likely quadruple the sales (depending on the slope of the supply/demand curve for this market).
Such a device will need to have an excellent remote editor .... preferably a blue tooth to tablet interface IMO allowing anyone with an Android, iPad, or Laptop to have a comprehensive editing capability for the device ..... which should have minimal physical interfaces on it other than stomp switches IMO. To get the cost down, I would suggest either eliminating the ability to profile .... or to offer 2 versions of the foot controller ... one with and one without profiling capabilities. I suppose the device could be edited through USB and only to a PC laptop as a bare minimum though. Very few people are going to be editing rigs on-the-fly at a gig IMO.
Personally, I really like the setup using my rack and floor pedal because it keeps the cables away from my foot area on stage. A dedicated floor unit would need considerably more things going in and out of it which would clutter my stage area more. For me, live sound setup and tear down are the most important features of the device.
Sometimes I get the feeling the people who don't want a new version of a Kemper is to protect their investment..
Monkey_Man had it right.
I simply don't have any need for the unit to do more. Even my "wants" are pretty small since it isn't like I can't get great sounding rigs now. There are obviously things that can always be improved. Perhaps it would be possible to get an even MORE accurate profile than we get today; however, to my ears, the KPA is already at a point of diminishing returns. Could it be better? Sure could. Would anyone notice? Debatable.
To your point though, I would be kind of disappointed if they came out with a new KPA2 soon. You are correct that I believe my free updates would come to a sharp end before I got the new verb engine.
I mean really, it makes sense for a new verb engine to be put in. Looking at the delay engine beside the very simplistic verb engine in the new editor really brings to the fore how basic the verb engine is compared to the now, quite sophisticated delay engine. What would really be cool would be if we could download impulse responses and then tweak our verb from the impulse response
That might be a tall order since in-flight convolution is very processor intensive (and memory intensive). Beautiful, but costly. Ah well.... I can always dream
Still, I guess I would much rather see a few more revisions to the current KPA than see a new KPA2 released. Perhaps it is just selfishness though!
Several months down the road now and I honestly can't understand why anybody thinks the KPA needs a major update or is deficient in some really significant way.
You're entitled to your opinion, but it's really immature and naive IMO to demand things from a company that continuously improves an already amazing product for free and doesn't try to build in obsolescence and make you buy the next model.
Imagine how much you'd lose your mind if they released a KPA2 and then released a KPA3 18 months later.
One thing that Kemper has done consistently that Fractal has failed horridly at is keeping a consistent platform such that any tone you had before an upgrade, will sound exactly the same after an upgrade.
Personally, this is an extremely important feature for me which trumps pretty much everything else. I don't know about you guys, but I have TONS of hours of dialing in tones for different songs and sets that I rely on sounding the same after an upgrade.
The current KPA has the ability to do nearly everything that has been mentioned in this thread. The notable exception IMO is dual rigs/amps. I have played around with the new Toast ME editor and believe that anyone who was complaining should now be quite happy that an editor exists. IMO, requiring it to be USB only is simply silly. The editor is very comprehensive and works well, so people should be off of that horse finally.
In the mean time, since Kemper hasn't changed their base hardware design, the company continues to enhance it with firmware updates for free. All of you begging for a KPA2 ..... how long do you suppose that practice would go on once a new model was released? Think about it.
For me, I could care less about a color display, an iPad interface, or even dual amp capabilities. I am all about the tone and the live function capabilities of this product. Give me an enhanced verb engine and either the ability to profile a pedal, or some better distortion stomps and not only will I not buy another competitor, I will likely simply purchase another used KPA even if this one dies in an electrical accident!
The floorboard KPA on the other hand offers Kemper an opportunity to enter a completely different price range of product. This will bring problems all of its own for CK since higher volume manufacturing is another beast altogether. Still, if the same DSP is used, it would be a really great product for relatively little effort (any new product is always more effort than it seems, so it isn't easy by any measure).
You’re entitled to your opinion :-).
The fact still remains, there are tons more Helix floor units being sold every day than Kempers or Axe FX, which goes in line with the need for a Kemper 2.0. Also, I felt the need to clarify misconceptions about Line 6 as a company. But yes, moving on!
Most reviewers believe that the Kemper sounds significantly better than the Helix. Helix doesn't sell more because of its tone, or its features IMO. Helix sells more because of its price.
If Kemper had a floor model in the same price range as the Helix, I think people would pick the new Kemper way more often than the Helix.
