When you say "compressed" in this A/B comparison, as well as in yours, that means that the pedal volume does not push the amp the same way.
This is not a difference in sound or quality, but simply a mismatch in pedal volume.
Needs to be adjusted correctly for a valid comparison.
Now that I am on it I am happy to test anything that you suggest to get things closer. I already wrote that I am learning a lot with all this.
Nice tone matching! To my ears, the profile with KD sounds more like your reference profile than the Ikon.
Yes. I agree. Could be my own lack of experience with the pedal or also that it is in front of the amp instead in the loop. Probably even if the Clean Sense was at -12 there still is some volume limit or compression within the signal before the stack that doesn't affect as much when the pedal is at the front imput.
But I think all of them are pretty close.
Atlantic, I can hear the difference for sure as the KD and even the MBritt sound more compressed in comparison. Just as I had noticed.
The flavour of the Klon is there but just misses the mark with being overly compressed.
Thanks for the sound bites. ?
I also can hear the difference. But I can tell you that playing through my monitors at home the feeling is completely there with all three signal chains. They all sound not only good, but very good. It's my playing what is lacking really.
So, I have been doing some intense testing, learning and comparing.
I am not a overdrive stomp user, but the inclusion of the new Kemper stomps in the beta 8.0 got me curious and I am taking advantage of the situation to learn more about overdrives and what they can give to me.
I will not talk here about comercial profiles, but in one recent pack I have profiles of a 68 Plexi that was profiled both alone and with a Klon Type pedal in front. That gave me an idea.
I would try to mach the baked in Klon tone, both with my real pedal and with the Kemper Drive. So I tweaked both of them until I got them as close as I could with my ears and my modest means (some spectrum analysis, for the graph lovers out there ).
I hope that this makes sense.
There are 3 sound files.
Archer Ikon: this has first the "clean tone" of the '68 Plexi and then with the real pedal in the front input of the Kemper.
Kemper Drive: this has again the "clean tone" of the '68 Plexi and then with the Kemper Drive preset that I created before the stack.
MBritt Klon: this is the reference overdriven tone of the profile that has a Klon baked in.
All the time I have Clean Sense at -12 dB and the base, non overdriven profile has a gain of 2.8.
Here you have the Archer Ikon setting.
And here the settings for the Kemper Drive.
Let me know what you think.
As far as I can tell unclemar s post was more about the guitars volume knob than about "hands"..which indeed is relevant.I mean for this thread.To be honest I always miss this part a lot when people dive into the OD pedal "controversy".
I don't know about unclemar's post. But you do have a point there. The volume of the guitar is relevant here. And with some hot pickups being able to clip the input of the KPA (Led turning red) it might be even more relevant.
The way I have my KPA connected I am not able to try the effects loop, because I use it to connect to my PC. But it would be interesting to see the difference between connecting an overdrive in front of the KPA vs Loop Distortion vs Kemper Drive and all the volume implications related.
I leave that to the ones that can use the loop. But I guess that if ckemper manages to override the volume compensation for the Kemper stomps it might have some advantages over using a real pedal in front of the KPA.
OK guys. It is the hands and the player and the amp. We all know that.
But this is a forum about the Kemper (gear related). And this thread about the new beta with new stomps. And we are nerding out about it.
Can you please, please... tell me what about the hands and the player is relevant in this discussion?
We all just might leave it. Sell the Kemper, sell all our electric guitars, grab a banjo and there we go. Because it's all in the hands of the player. C'mon!!!!
Our friend Rob Scallon already demonstrated that it is possible to play metal on a banjo. But I am not going to link it here so we don't get more offtopic.
I can think of ways to avoid the amps volume compensation, when driven by a pedal, while it can stay when not driven by a pedal.
Maybe we can change that for the next update, without causing volume differences on already existing rigs.
That would be great.
So my question is still valid.
Of course it is. Don't think I'm trying to invalidate your question. On the contrary.
Some of us have been finding limitations with volume while testing the new stomps. l
Digging a bit more into this (sorry if I'm rehashing - just let me know) I tried playing around with clean sense. Unless I'm going crazy I used to be able to use clean sense to balance no (low) gain sounds with high gain sounds:
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Right now it doesn't seem to make a difference. I would have sworn it used to?
musicmad is seems to me that you are reamping, are you???
If that is the case I made the same mistake some days ago. Clean Sens does nothing on the reamping circuit. You have to use output volume of your DI from the DAW and also Reamp Sens.
From the 7.5 manual:
Quote from Main Manual 7.5Display More Step four: reamping input leveling
For an optimum signal-to-noise ratio, leveling the reamping input is just as critical as leveling the pure instrument
output. The leveling is done by the output level of the recording device; it cannot be adjusted in the PROFILER. The
S/PDIF signal can only be adjusted in the sending device by definition.
Instrument Input and Reamping 125
Play your guitar through the armed track or play back a previously recorded track. Watch the INPUT LED while you
adjust the output volume on the recording device. The LED should turn to yellow when the strings are struck hard,
but no further. This is all you need to do, so long as the Rig you are reamping has no distorting amp or effect in the
signal flow.
If you reamp a distorting Rig, you might notice that the amount of distortion still differs from the original, despite
following the above procedure. This is a natural consequence of the correct leveling of input and output: the leveling
is made to achieve an optimum signal-to-noise ratio but does not deal with the preservation of the original instrument
level. This is what the parameter “Reamp Sens” is for - simply dial the desired amount of distortion via ”Reamp
Sens” - and you’re all set!
What is the drive setting on your analog, and on the KD?
This makes a whole lot of difference even in the mix between clean and distorted path.
I'll have to go back and test again with the Maxon OD. But I was not able to get rid of enough clean signal to match the sound of the Maxon OD-9.
Please be aware that the span of the KDs Drive control is wider than on most overdrives.
Therefore the zero setting does not match the zero setting of a 808 or 9.
Yes, of course I know that. I will do a second round of testing with the Maxon to see if I come to the same conclusions. I did not take notes of my settings.
What happens if you put your guitar straight to the Profilers input?
Ok. So some noise was coming from a wireless system that I have in place.
Now, once I connect my guitar straight to the input I get the same noise level as if I just disconnect it completely.
Still in this situation I can make the KD hiss by increasing the drive and volume parameters (no cord connected to input). This hiss gets blocked by the Input Section Noise Gate if use it. Also I can block it with a Noise Gate stomp in front of the KD or after it. Please confirm that this behavior is normal.
might that have to do with the location and therefore the kpa’s main noise gate? External pedals if placed before the KpA input just might get gated more than a model in one of the effects slots. Perhaps you’d get as much noise with a real OD pedal in the effects loop?
Thanks for your suggestion Grooguit . For all this tests I keep the Noise Gate in the Input Section at 0.0 value.
I am using the pedals in front of the KPA.
Nice measurements!
However, it does not contradict our approach and what we claim.
ckemper what do you think of my observation that to mach the Maxon OD-9 it could be useful to have more (maybe all of it) of the overdriven path of the signal in the 100% setting of the Mix knob?
Having this parameter is so useful. Why limit it to a maximum setting that is not really a 100% mix of the overdriven tone?
If you keep the approach of showing users "the way" to certain pedals you just could just include the Mix parameter in your graphics on the manual. Maybe a 808 would be a 80% mix while a Maxon OD-9 would have a 90% mix.
Think about it. Introducing that change you loose nothing and we gain flexibility.
On another note I would like to address other issue that might have some room for improvement.
Right now I have tested the KD and Full OC stomps against three real pedals: Fulltone OCD 1.7, Maxon OD-9 and J. Rockett Audio Designs Archer Ikon.
In all cases the Kemper stomp is A LOT noisier than any of the real pedals. With the pedals I would be able to use them without the need of a Noise Gate. Not with the Kemper stomps.
Kemper Drive: it's not perfect, it has some limitations, it is not a Klon nor a Precision Drive (even when it has some resemblence to both). But it is still a damn good overdrive! Big thanks and thumbs up to Kemper team.
-Jari
The more I test it, the more I think this statement from jperttu is completely true.
In the craziness of testing the KD I have gone out of my usual ways nowdays (I used to buy a lot of pedals) and I acquired a J. Rockett Audio Designs Archer Ikon. Testing it right now. WOW.
I have been doing my initial tests comparing the Maxon OD with the Kemper Drive.
I have been able to get very similar tones. Not 100% the same, but close enough.
What I have found more difficult is to match the "mix". Maybe it is an inherent characteristic of the Maxon OD, I don´t know. But I found that there is more wet (more overdriven) signal in the Maxon OD than the 100% mix value in the KD.
This is using a classic setup of a Deluxe Reverb profile just on the edge of breakup and the KD/Maxon in front of it.
Are there any changes to the Kemper Drive, Full OC, or the Presets since the beta OS 8.0.0.21450
Apparently no. Just improvement of the SPDIF.
wow this is deep,,,too deep for me,,,,
I bought the kemper, because it is the best amp sound, I could find,hands down, NOT because it was,, or would be,, the best EFX machine,,all in one solution,,,no piece of gear is, or in my opinion , will ever be,,
I have a silver klon, a Greer light speed,, and a boss CE-3, Kempers' delays are perfect,,,,, I have NEVER found a sim,, that sounds/reacts,and most importantly, FEELS exactly like my dirt/ overdrive/distortion, pedals,as good as some are,,,So,,,,,, I have my few pedals in front of Mr Kemper,( I treat it just like an amp),,never in 35 years have I had such a long stretch of tone happiness,,,,,everything here discussed my have some tech relevance,I'm sure,,and I'm not slighting it one bit( excuses the pun),,,, but it has nothing to do making music,,for which the Kemper was built ,,TO MAKE MUSIC,,,
7 years now, It still BLOWS me away every time I turn it on and play,,,,,,,,( I run the input very low, so when I hit it with pedals, I have plenty of room,,)
get a great profile, find your fav pedal,, and play,, my 2 cents,,,peace out
The Kemper is great. I wish I could be as satisfied with only one guitar as I am satisfied with the Kemper as my only amp.
But it is OK to look for improvements or to try and find the limits when we are testing a beta release.
When the delays or reverbs where released some haters where (like always) saying that the KPA had not enough power(because it is outdated, the DSP is out of production and all that rubbish) to cope with the algorithms or whatever. Because there where some bugs in the betas. Like there always are.
Reverbs are DSP power hungry.
I remember that when the new reverbs beta came out, I tested loading a reverb in ALL slots. All 8 of them. For me if the KPA was able to take 8 reverbs it would be a way to demonstrate that it did not lack any processing power, despite the opinions of some people. And do you know what happened when I did it the first time? The KPA crashed. And I reported back to Kemper with that bug. A couple of beta releases later, that bug was fixed and the KPA was taking 8 reverbs in line like a champ. So, when testing a beta release the critical users that put the KPA to the limit do a lot more for the community than the ones that only clap and say everything is great and enjoy the great tool that the KPA is.
It's a shame that I think the small arguments killed a bit the mood of the thread. But I think a lot of us where learning a lot in the process.
I will try and go back to the learning bit.
I think tomorrow I will have the chance to borrow a Maxon OD from my bandmate and I will do some testing against the KD.
My tests of the Full OC against my real Fulltone OCD 1.7 where very impressive as I already told here. I hope to get similar results with the Maxon.
Discussing issues with the software is great, discussing issues with each other not.
I agree.
Input volume that affects the boosting abilities of the KD, a type of pedal that is very often used for boosting I think is a relevant topic in this thread.
At least it would be relevant to know how to use it and how not.
In a perfect world we would be able to use the KD or Green Scream as any real overdrive pedal. But we know the digital realm has not only an immense amount of advantages but also some limitations.
The new stomps, KD and Full OC, sound very good and they are very usable, no doubt about that.
Also they have some issues with the volume compensation in the pre stack section of the KPA like it seems to happen with any other effect that can boost the signal. Maybe it is not something new. But it is relevant now for this beta release.
If there is some design features that can't be changed, at least talking about it might lead us to find some workarounds.
Vinny Burns asked why we need that volume compensation and then need to use Clean Sens for adjustment.
I also wonder if for the regular use of overdrive stomps it could be useful not having that volume compensation so they work on a more realistic way when you boost the signal.
Thanks for testing!
Happy to help.
I can even hear the volume stall at 0 dB. A small drop in volume.
But is this a normal way of an amp or pedal to react when you rise the volume? I mean, to compress and get more distortion without more volume I understand. But a drop in volume even if it is small, does it happen in real pedals and amps? This is an honest question. I don't know.
Interesting.
What do you experience exactly?
A volume drop or signal degradaton or both?
How does the signal react when you keep the KD volume at +5.0 but lower the reamping volume?
Ok, so I have created a DI that can be tested. And I share some test files I reamped using it.
The DI was made with a Gibson Les Paul R8 using the bridge pickup. This guitar has typical PAF humbuckers with regular to low output. I tried to play hard and consistent and the input led was all the time on the verge of being yellow. I wouldn´t play like that most times but I reckon that I could play like that and I do when I get excited playing with my band. So it is not ridiculously hard or loud.
By creating this DI that you can feed to reamp at 0dB with no change in input volume you can test what happens using the lightbox rig and changing the volume on the Kemper Drive from 2.2 to 5.0
In the 3 test files that I have recorded I did always the same thing. I programmed a morphing change in that pot from 2.2 to 5.0. Then on each audio file while reamping I morph from 2.2 to 5.0 and back to 2.2
You can see that at 0dB there is a drop in volume when going from 2.2 to 5.0.
At -10 dB I would say that there is a volume "stall" and only the distortion changes.
At -20 there is an increase of volume and also an increase of the distortion.
