Posts by SonicExporer

    To clarify, the dist sense is like a global gain control (or offset, as Don puts it), but only for distorted sounds. For those profiles, it works as the "regular" gain control.


    If you find yourself increasing the gain on most of your profiles (or lowering it), then it would be easier to just use the dist sense. It also makes sense in the scenarios where one guitar drives the profiles harder than others (ie. more distortion), and you want to match the amount of distortion between your other guitars.

    There is at least one major difference however in that unlike the gain control the Distortion Sense comes before the stomps section, right?

    What we've been referring to as congestion/rasp, something off in the gain structure in the upper registers and thin solo notes could all be related to the same underlying problem. All it would take is for something to cause an alignment, artifact or phase issue (or some other similar animal) and all those attributes we've been discussing could result from that single cause.


    The big question remains however is it fixable or not? I fear if, after 5 years, the problem hasn't been solved maybe the reason is it simply cannot be resolved. Then again, maybe CK is more of a tech-geek & businessman and less of a guitarist so he just hasn't noticed these issues yet. ??


    Sonic

    I've heard the Kemper does Marshall's very well. It could possibly lend to the theory that the KPA uses a template or source tone that may very well be based on a Marshall and refines from there, so the further you trend from that tone, the more pronounced differences become.

    I think it depends on the Marshall. Some of the later JCM's maybe. I agree with the theory the KPA probably has templates it selects from and then applies EQ matching of sorts. If you know tube amp circuits then you are aware there are only a handful of different circuits out there that are all gain staged in different ways, combined with differing components (transformers, chokes, etc) and EQ frequencies, that all create different end results. Even circuit board layout impacts tone. I've read interviews where CK says he initially embarked down the path of modeling with intent to finally solve the digital modeler shortcomings but after a good while down that path he realized it would be too tedious to cover many amps. So my guess is he took that knowledge to create templates and then applied EQ matching of sorts (which under this theory is what the refining phase of profiling is likely based on). So yes, if this theory has any merit it is very possible the core templates are not always close enough to the amp to result in a proper duplicate profile. Then again, seeing as how the same issues (rasp/congestion) are surfacing across a variety of profiles (in varying degrees) I still lean more heavily toward there being something else going on in the core tone engine logic and/or hardware design.


    Sonic

    DI again, this time a "clean" profile (kemper sensing no distortion). The strings are older than Jesus on this guitar so couldn't play for **** but it shouldn't affect the comparison (no other guitar with me with single coils atm).


    It's very close.


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    One thing I just noticed....what is up with the S/N ratio in the KPA clips?? That's just crazy. I've been so focused on the tone elements I haven't really paid any attention to noise but as I listen to this clip it just smacks you in the face. Was there anything different going on with the recording of the KPA clips or is that just the end result of the way the KPA replicated the tone?


    Sonic

    One thing I have noticed is that I notice this metallic sound in the upper harmonics a lot more on longer scale guitars. My strat at 25-1/2" lends more to this than my Les Paul at 24-3/4". It's like the Kemper is adding bloom? To those higher harmonic overtones. This gives it a unwanted metallic raspiness.

    This may be the drunk mosquito effect (fret buzz or spaceship or phasing). I mentioned recently. It also may be the very same thing that is mucking up the upper gain/harmonic structure making the distortion sound more un-natural. Could all be working together to create the rasp & congestion effect. It's hard to say. These tone issues we've been talking about the last six months could be separate or could all be related to a single issue in the way the KPA is replicating tone. Only Kemper has the answers.


    Try this: Take that strat and find a profile where you can really hear well the sound you are referring to. Then go through the profile and try to see if there is a specific knob that will dial it out. In particular try the Definition knob. If you have that set higher than 9 try dialing it back a little, I found that helps quite a bit. If you find any other settings that may be a contributor please report back and share.


    Sonic

    Fair enough, if you don't hear the issues I can't argue otherwise. That doesn't mean the issues don't exist. Contrarily, I and others have found the issues are more prevalent, including also some commercial profile mfr's. It's definitely not isolated to a small set of amps or individuals' profiling efforts.


    I don't recall failing an A/B test as I generally don't participate in them. People have tried to lure me into them but I don't bite because they are usually done so as traps & distractions and serve absolutely no purpose in helping solve the very real tone issues that exist within the KPA.


    If Kemper fixes these KPA tone issues I will gladly become a die-hard advocate and defender. But not in the current state. As Dimi said, people who are concerned with this matter really need to start opening Support Tickets. There's plenty of evidence to refer to.


    Sonic

    2-Some basic user error that some are not paying attention or missing something.
    The only way this can be assessed is if someone who's having a major difference can show a video and a walk through of their failed profiling process so that it can hopefully be contrasted with the ever so many successful profiling sessions that are constantly still being documented in Video and audio.


    We simply can't ignore the thousands of successes to come to a conclusion but instead use the few failures to draw our conclusion. .

    This is not accurate. If someone knows what to listen for they can hear the problems in the majority of the clips online, including those being portrayed as exact matches. There are those of us who have pointed this out already, with examples. Many people apparently either aren't listening on proper devices or don't know what to listen for. I instead contend there are not many successful profiling sessions. I myself have issued challenges in other threads to replicate some specific cranked hot rodded 80's Marshall tones (along with examples) and have yet to receive even ONE viable result from anybody. There were only a few which relied on either EQ matching or combined profiles,and even those were not a proper replication. They did however at least sound more real, but again, all this shouldn't be necessary. Anyway, even some of the marketing hyped producers are having to resort to tricks to get the KPA to sound right, they have admitted as much in interviews. Again, all documented. So to claim, or imply, that somehow this adds any credibility to the KPA in replicating an amp properly is simply misleading at best.


    On the tone front I have not wavered from day one, the KPA has a congested/raspy aspect to it and/or something wrong going on in the gain structure. The fallout from this also impacts solo notes, they are noticeably thin compared to the real amp. All of this stuff is portrayed in the videos Dimi provided, and it follows the same thing I've encountered when profiling and user other profiles. Yes, some profiles are impacted more than others, but the essence is still there in varying degrees and is not IMO trivial for serious recording purposes as it impacts the end result in a way that doesn't sound real to my ears.


    Sonic

    @ashtweth
    There are definitely good points, and for people who use the device for something other than serious recording it may be fine.


    Features & tweakability are good, feel is within acceptable range IMO (which is an accomplishment for something trying to emulate a tube amp) and the device has a good usability design. And a supportive community (unless someone points out something negative, lol) But IMO for serious recording any potential good aspects of the KPA are a distant second to core tone. If the tone isn't right it's game over.


    It should be rather easy for Kemper to identify what the differences are by simply looking at the wave-forms of the tests that have been posted and/or sent in to Support. Whether or not the issues are fixable is another story. But I would think if some limitation prevents a direct improvement to the tone engine then at a minimum they would be able to at least provide some improvements to the profiling and/or refining process, or more detailed instruction on refining, or maybe some sort of new control that can dial out the congestion (like the space control). SOMETHING to address the issue.


    I believe amp tone replication in the industry has become so close on many fronts (profiling, modeling, software, etc) that any day now somebody is going to evolve their product (or introduce new product) that is going to nail an amp so close it will be deemed identical enough for serious recording purposes. We are almost there now. And once this happens, any devices that don't have their act together in the core tone department are going to be left in the dust quickly thereafter.


    Sonic

    Also I'm totally open to being proven wrong. Well, can only share my experience and that's what it has been.


    If someone wants to do a similar DI comparison and the differences aren't there, then there would be some reason to think something's off about my approach somehow.

    There's nothing off with your approach, I've reproduced the same issues both with amps and with and with profiling a POD. And like you, I've reached out to other international industry professionals and they have shared they too have similar experiences.


    Seems quite apparent that a real amp is still prudent, if not outright required, for any serious recording.. Which is a terrible shame because the KPA is almost on the right side of the fence. But as long as the focus stays on adding bells and whistles and marketing instead of getting the core tone aspects properly ironed out, and as long as people keep drinking the marketing Cool Aid, the device may never evolve to the right side of the fence.


    The device has the features, the feel (decent enough anyway IMO) and nice usability design. But all that is sadly meaningless if the core tone has shortcomings that prevent it from sounding like a proper amp for desired application.


    Sonic

    @SonicExporer Same DI as before, this time with a tubemeister 18 amp.


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    Good grief, just like the other clip at around 1:40 and again around 3:00 you can hear how terrible the replication is. Congested and thin. Un-natural as well. This really sticks out in a mix when you start layering things.


    Anybody who can't hear this really doesn't understand tone, that's all I can say. If you think the KPA is reproducing a real amp sound then wonderful. however plenty of proof has now been shown in many cases that it simply does not replicate adequately. And the sad part is, if some other people got out of the world of denial or marketing spin and instead put time into working on the actual problem (testing, support tickets, etc) maybe the tonal deficiency would actually get fixed. For live or hobby use maybe the KPA is ok for some people, but for serious recording these tonal deficiencies can be a real impediment. Some applications more than others.


    Sonic

    Well, many of the profiles I tried had the definition up already set quite high. And for me, I've been trying to get rid of the congestion issue as well. Higher definition seemed to help a bit. Clarity helps too, but too much thins the sound out even further.

    Did you confirm that the drunk mosquito wasn't a result of in-interface summing via onboard routing or built-in mixer, combining a slightly-delayed (due to A/D conversion at the interface's inputs and D/A at the Kemper outs) signal with the Kemper's S/PDIF out, Sonic?


    The drunk mosquito is a critter I'd like to see squashed.

    Ok, so I finally had a chance to look into this a bit further. I did not fully dissect the profile to determine every nuance that could be contributing but I did manage to find a huge culprit: The Definition setting.


    Up to around 8 or so the fret buzz is at a more normal level, but as you approach 10 (and especially in the 9+ range) the KPA suddenly starts grabbing the fret buzz like nothing I've experienced before. In experimenting I noticed I could hear hiss kick up considerably in the signal as it nears 10. This probably explains why I hear it in guitar parts at times since I tend to run Definition in 8.5 - 9.3 range on a number of profiles. So I've now learned just how crazy this Definition control can get. I have no idea what exactly it is doing but at the upper end of the range it really brings out upper frequency nuances. There seems to be a pretty harsh ramp from 9 to 10..


    Sonic

    The fact that kemper is as close gives me reason to hope it's possible to bridge whatever gap there still is.

    Exactly. For me, it is only because the device is somewhat close that I am even expending time trying to raise concerns.


    That video is an excellent example of the issues. In various spots you can hear big as day the KPA does NOT sound like the reference nor even like a real amp. It seems the KPA does better with profiling gainy, scooped, drop-tuned busy material. Probably because there's so much going on it masks the issues. But when it comes to what I refer to as real guitar tone (grin) the KPA just often fails when it comes to serious recording applications, doesn't match the reference and/or even sound real.


    Listen to the comparisons in the video at these two locations:


    1) Approx 1:40 (Rhythm example) Totally not the same, raspy gain, congested, not even close to the source. Not even sounding natural.
    2) Approx 3:00 (Solo single-note example) Totally thins out the note, ruins solo tones.


    These are excellent examples of specifically what I've been raising concerns about for a good 6 months now. What I heard the very first day I plugged into the KPA.


    If these issues can be worked out I will be championing the KPA from the highest hilltops. But as it stands today the KPA is simply not very usable for serious recording efforts in my experience thus far.


    Sonic

    Far more often than not, in my experience, especially for the 80's Marshall style classic metal tones, the KPA just can't get there for serious recording purposes. Futzing around with EQ matching or layering multiple profiles is required. And that just shouldn't be necessary. There's a congestion and rasp that doesn't sound good to my ears, not in comparison to a real amp nor on it's own (sounds fake). And at the end of the day, for serious recording purposes tone trumps everything. If the tone isn't there any such tool is at risk for becoming an expensive paper weight.


    I am going to work on some simple profiling tests in the coming weeks to see if I can learn more about what's going on and if there are any ways to correct things during profiling. But after 5 years on the market if nobody has figured out a solution yet then I don't have much confidence anything new or special will result from my efforts.


    I'd really like to see Kemper concentrate on fixing/improving the core tone shortcomings before adding more bells & whistles. JMO


    Sonic

    I'm not sure if you have an older version or something but there's a big knob on mine on the low right with 440 under it that you can turn to change the frequency?

    Yeah, that's what I mean......the directions imply it is for MIDI only but after looking at the UI more closely on YouTube it seems that knob is not grouped with the MIDI controls after all. So it may work


    Problem I have now is I can't even get Gsnap to load on my old system. Grrr.....

    So it's not a matter of individual note being off, but simply the complete track being off a number of cents - but otherwise in tune "with itself"?


    In that case I'd try a simple pitch shifter first.

    No, it's both. The song was recorded slightly off conventional tuning (I think on purpose) and the new track is slightly pitchy too. So I need to correct the track but it needs to be corrected to something other than standard tuning alignment.


    I run into this on occasion and it drives me nuts. Some cheap digital tuners aren't accurate and/or people don't know how to use them. So at the end of the day, a song might be slightly off proper baseline tuning alignment. So if you have a specific track that needs to be added later it' can be a bear trying to get it pitched correctly inside the song. It can be both a track issue and a relativity issue. So I need a VST that can pitch correct a track, but do so relative to an adjustable baseline tuning alignment that fits the song.

    GVST makes one that's free, works great.


    Edit: Didn't see you already found it. Yes it does audio tuning, no midi input needed. You need to run it in fixed mode and make sure the gate triggers on the notes.


    You change the tuning by clicking on those little boxes on the keyboard image on the side.

    But....those keyboard boxes you refer to are notes, right? That's fine, but what I need is for the VST to pitch correct relative to a baseline tuning. I'm not seeing how GVST would do this? It can pitch correct, but if I want to also have it adjust the baseline calibration from something like 440 to 430, I'm not seeing anything in the instructions that indicate how to do that.....if it's even possible. Seems under "MIDI" there is a calibration setting for exactly this, but not for audio?


    A more specific example: Somebody brings me an older project which they want to add a new track. Turns out they didn't have the baseline tuning for the overall song correct either (or maybe it was intentional). And the new track I add is also bit pitchy. So I need to correct the pitch of the track but it needs to be done relative to the baseline tuning of the song.

    Hi Guys,


    Is there a free pitch correct VST for Windows I could use in Sonar that would simply correct slight pitch issues with audio instrument tracks that I can also set the baseline tuning as well? In other words, say I have a song that is slightly flat (430 for example) and I record a bass track that I wish to pitch correct while also having the result be in tune for that song. I located a VST called Gsnap, but it doesn't appear to be able to set baseline tuning for audio (just MIDI)?


    Any recommendations appreciated....


    Sonic