Hi, I've noticed it too: I lower, with post-eq, the 2.500hz frequency in almost all the distortion rigs.
I leave Q at 707.
Cool, thanks, sounds like it's normal (at least for the Kemper) - and to be clear, it's only with some distorted profiles I find this frequency range unbearable. With most, it's there, but bearable/tameable. Solution - stick to my previous policy of only working with profiles that sound good to begin with!
Is the whistle still present if you turn off the amp block in the Kemper?
Can't hear much difference at all with amp block off - not sure what this tells me though, other than at least it's not some ghost signal ever-present in my Kemper or pickups. The question remains whether this frequency range is more harsh with the Kemper than if you were to record a real amp. If it's normal tho (i.e. not a particular fault in my Kemper) then it's sort of a moot point anyway I suppose - is what it is. Usually doesn't take much EQ to tame it - after all this only came to my attention because of a profile where it was particularly bad. Most profiles it's still there. but bearable/tameable. At this point I guess it's just a matter of technical curiosity as to whether the Kemper accentuates this harshness due to it's profiling tech or digital nature.
Is the whistle still present if you turn off the amp block in the Kemper?
Ah, good point! That would help rule out anything to do with my pickups. Will try this next. Although as this harsh freq is only really there on dist tones (and I suspect just a natural artifact of a distorted amps overtones) I'm not sure if it's going to answer the question of whether this is a Kemper thing or an amp thing.
You most likely have a real time analyzer in your GAW. Or you can probably download a free plug-in. Seeing the waveform is the way to confirm or rule out the issue is being something in the Profiler.
I've got various EQ analysers in my DAW - do you mean the sort of frequency spectrum analysis that Pro Q shows - or the actual waveform of the audio? (there's a stock Cubase plugin that will show the latter). I'm not sure what I'm looking for in either of these tho that would determine whether this harsh whistling tone around 2000-2500hz is just a natural feature of guitar amps, or if it's a problem with the Kemper?
To verify, try having a technician / friend, connect an oscilliscope or spectrum analyzer to the Kemper Main Output then Monitor to verify if the 2kHz - 3kHz is present. This eliminates the crossovers, speakers and anything else beyond the Kemper as any issue.
I don't know anyone with this equipment... But if monitoring thru headphones (which I've tried) what else is there besides the Kemper and the headphones?
Just out of interest, have you tried what I suggested - notching out the frequencies (on a distorted profile) somewhere between 2000 and 2500 (wherever it sounds harshest) and then removing the EQ to see if the harsh whistling tone then leaps out? Now this is definitely creating an "aural illusion", whereby the harsh freq sounds worse/louder than it really is when you suddenly remove the EQ - but it does help to identify these frequencies.
btw, in practice, I would not use a notch filter to remove them - just a bell curve with steep-ish Q and few db gain reduction, just enough to tame the harshness without killing the overall character of the sound. And I do think it most likely that this harshness is simply there in distorted amps, and typically does need cutting, similar to how there's always some "mud" around 250-300 hz. But if no-one else is hearing what I'm hearing at this freq range, then maybe it is my Kemper...
Admittedly someone else trying this notch on/off trick may not be conclusive - the harsh whistling tone is there to varying degrees from profile to profile (another reason why I think it's probably just a natural artifact of the amps), and it may bother some people more or less - but it would help at least somewhat in determining whether it's normal or not.
Since no asked yet, what are you monitoring your sound with? It is possible your speakers have a resonance there. I have played my Kemper thru a few sets of speakers and the high end is different on all of them. Very crispy sounding on some, etc.
That is why I asked about the waveform - if it isn’t in the signal before the speaker, it could be related to the crossover for the tweeter. https://www.soundonsound.com/s…akers-crossover-frequency
I did consider this, should have mentioned - to rule it out, I also tried through headphones (direct from the Kemper) and toggling the studio EQ on/off - same thing, always around that freq (let's say between 2000 and 2500 hz) always a harsh whistling tone that sounded better cut out, and that really leaps out horribly if you put it back in.
Remember... you are not hearing the amp or cab but the microphones interpretation of the amp and cab. Also, be careful what frequencies you cut until you got a full mix. Some of those 'undesirables' sound good against bass, drums, and vocals.
Oh, definitely, I am careful of this - I use the Kemper for recording, so am always trying to set up the sound to work well in a mix context. And btw, I'd never use a notch filter on gtrs (or much else for that matter, unless for an effect) - I just mention it here as it helps quickly demonstrate the difference with that frequency in/out. Been experimenting with a few profiles that 'd consider to be very well balanced already, and am finding that the best treatment is just a normal bell curve, quite a steep Q, couple of db reduction. Definitely, as with any "bad" freq, too much out and it starts to negatively affect the sounds character.
I've noticed all Kemper profiles have a harsh "whistling" freq around 2200hz - more noticeable in high gain profiles, and some more than others, but it's always there. If you're monitoring thru a DAW, set up a notch filter at 2200hz, toggle it on/off, and you'll notice a piercing "whistling" tone leap out when you toggle the notch filter off. Or with the Kemper's studio EQ (post amp/cab), a mid-band cut at 2200hz, maximum gain reduction, highest Q, will also work. What I'm wondering is if it's something specific to the Kemper, or if it's just that all guitar amps have this going on? i.e. is it inevitably just part of a guitar amp's distortion overtones?
If anyone feels inclined, could they try the notch filter on/off trick (at around 2200hz) and let me know if they're hearing the same thing? And if anyone's got some distorted guitars they've recorded from a real amp, if the same thing is noticeable here too?
I suspect it probably is, and also that what I'm noticing is just an acoustic phenomenon whereby if you cut out a harsh freq, then put it back in, it REALLY leaps out. BUT it is only at this specific freq that, when you cut and then remove the EQ, it suddenly sounds so harsh - hence just curious whether this is specific to, or maybe just more pronounced, with the Kemper.
EDIT: to be more accurate (or less...) this harsh whistling freq isn't always at exactly 2200hz - say somewhere between 2000-3000, usually between 2000-2500 tho. But try a notch filter on/off anywhere around there, you should hear what I'm talking about - unless of course it is just my Kemper!!
Also, have tried thru headphones (direct from Kemper) and hear exactly the same thing toggling the Kemper's studio EQ on/off at that freq - just to rule out monitoring equipment or environment being the cause.
And again, I suspect it's probably just a nasty freq range for any distorted gtr amp - but just curious to get some 2nd opinions!
So here's a hypothetical for you guys. Say we just finished a '68 Bassman drip edge profiling session. All together roughly 30ish profiles. Starting with studio profiles of both Bass And Normal channels with both bright switch and deep switch on and off. Then going from clean to pushed and eventually a mellow K type over drive and also a pretty nasty Fuzz. Those are all done with an SM57. From there, we took our favorites and made studio profiles with a really nice ribbon mic. Also got a handful with both channels jumped ranging from clean through overdrive. We made about 5 directs based on our favorites and I'm in the process of figuring out how many merged to make.
Thoughts so far on anything we might be overlooking? The way I'm thinking it'll be studio profiles of everything with both mics individually including all channels. Then select direct based on our favorites. And obviously those can be turned into merged easily enough. Thoughts?
Sound good! My preference is indeed for studio profiles plus DI's - if you have both of these, you don't need merged (am distrustful of merged ones, whether rightly or wrongly, as detailed above!!)
Just make sure there's a range of EQ settings (i.e. on the amp's tone knobs) for each gain range - some that'll work with brighter or darker pickups etc.
Display MoreIn theory they shouldn't sound any different 'though.
I wonder if the differences peeps hear could be attributed to subtle changes in amp settings, mic positioning (a small bump even) or even tubes' warming up more.
The manual states:
Do not touch the controls of the amp after capturing the Direct Amp PROFILE, as both PROFILEs, and thus the eventual Merged PROFILE, must be based on the same original amp sound.
Yeah, it's totally possible that's the explanation, had also wondered that. But also, I have to assume there's a reason why multiple profile makers include both? Would have to ask them I suppose, as I've never made any profiles I am just theorising here.
Even if would, does it matter? If it sounds good it sounds good. I've said countless time, not only on this forum, guitarists worry too much about the tone. They should worry more about making better songs. At least 90-95% of music listeners don't care about the tone nor are aware of the guitar tone. I rather listen to a killer song with not the best guitar tone than a boring mediocre one with killer tone.
As I said, it's not necessarily the case that the studio version sounds objectively better than the merged - though I have noticed that whenever I have the choice of both (and don't intend swapping cabs) I always favour the studio one... But I would totally agree, the difference is small and most people aren't going to be bothered by the difference. If I were to make and sell profiles though, I'd probably include both (and maybe even the DI as well) - after all the process of making a merged profile involves also making a studio and a direct version if I'm correct?
I'm not aware of this mate.
I too can't see how it would change the DI component.
Guidorist, Top Jimi and Pete's Profiles are 3 I can think of that include both studio and merged of each profile - if you have any of their packs, compare studio to merged versions, there is a difference - of course, depending on your pickups etc, the merged ones might work better! But the point is there is a difference in sound, which I assume has to be something to do with how the Kemper separates the cab from the studio profile to add to the DI to generate the merged one. And given that, I suspect that studio profiles are a slightly "purer" representation of the originally captured tone. It is mentioned in the descriptions to some of Pete's packs that he includes both because of this difference, and have definitely read others saying the same, tho can't remember exactly who or where.
But I do agree, given the choice of one or the other, I'd definitely prefer merged - but only because I almost always swap the stock cab! For someone who doesn't want to be bothered with cab swapping or IR's though, it might be good to have studio profiles available too.
As I said, Merged covers all bases.
Those who love DI Profiles have the "pure" version in there.
Those who love Studio Profiles have the "combined" version.
Those who prefer the "pure" isolated cab to Kemper's separation algorithm used in Studio Profiles have this too.
Just a thought on this - I'm no expert as I've never actually made any profiles, but I have heard it said (or rather, seen it written!) by various profile makers that merged profiles don't sound exactly the same as studio profiles - and I've got various packs where studio and merged versions of the same profiles are included, and they definitely do sound slightly different. Given how merged profiles are generated (separating the cab portion of the studio profile and combining it with a DI) I can see why this would be the case - e.g. there still seems to be some sort of cab separation algorithm going on during the process - but correct me if I'm mistaken here. Either way though, there does seem to be a subtle-ish sonic difference. Maybe include both merged and studio (again, this is what various other profile makers do).
One thing I'm less sure of, is whether DI profiles sound exactly the same as merged-minus-cab - I've also heard it said that it's better to do dedicated DI profiles because the merging process changes the Di slightly. In theory, I don't see why this would be the case, given how merged profiles are generated. But again, maybe best to include separate DI's as well just to be sure - maybe contact some experienced profiles makers for advice (if they're willing to share their secrets that is!), or run a test?
I prefer DI (to pair with 3rd party IR's) - also useful for anyone playing thru a real cab.
Also, in terms of settings, I've tried so many profile packs where there's basically one tonal balance throughout, with various different gain levels and pedals - if this tonal balance happens to work with your pickups, you're in luck - if not, the whole pack is useless! I think the best way is to just pick a couple of good gain levels for the amp, and do a variety of tonal balances for each (e.g. some with EQ knobs level, some with scooped mids, some with more bass/treble etc) - that way the pack should be more useful to more people, and across a range of pickups. It's quite easy to change the gain on the Kemper (reducing the gain knob works well, and adding a green scream or kemper drive is great for more dist) - but there's only so far you can EQ a profile before it sounds unnatural.
It's not a twin, but LRS's Fender Bandmaster is really good, tons of variety, and not far off from a Twin so I think it might cover what you're after. I've also got some good sounds from Choptones '67 Twin - tho I've only tried the DI pack (paired with various Celestion IR's)
Have tried a bunch of other Fenders from various companies but none of these really hit the spot like the above-mentioned ones. All depends on guitar/pickups tho so you might end up having to try a few different ones also!
They make great profiles! And not only heavy ones, some of my favourite Fender cleans and mid-gain Marshalls are from them too. Tim's even made me some custom profiles over the years - one of the very best profile-makers out there.
Nice heavy riffing btw!!
It's useful to have the full range of volume available on your pickups - I don't think you should have to reduce vol on guitar just to get a useable tone - reserve this trick for if you e.g. want to clean up a sound for a quieter portion of the song without changing profile.
Apart from adjusting input clean and dist sens as mentioned, try a pure booster in the 1st pedal slot. I usually boost a little, not to the point it sounds like a "boost" as such, but just to get the profile to feel more authentic - i.e. to get the right amount of "bite" and full range of dynamics I'd expect from the amp. However the pure boost also goes into negative values, so if your pickups are too hot, try this - just adjust it till it feels and sounds right - this amount will likely vary slightly from profile to profile, but remain in the same ballpark for a given set of pickups.
Definitely important to bear in mind that Direct Profiles do (usually) have the influence of a cab/load on them, but they're still capturing the sound that comes directly out of the output of the amp before the cab. The cabinet (or load) affects the sound of the poweramp. If you capture a direct from an FX send (or preamp output), then it wont have the poweramp colouration on it - these sound quite flat to record with as the poweramp adds quite a lot of tone to things. They can be sometimes useful for running into an FX return of an amp though.
I had wondered what the "load box" was that people talk about when creating DI profiles! If I understand you correctly, you're saying it simulates running into a cab, without which the power amp wouldn't respond authentically?
Thanks for the explanation! I'll give it a shot sometime.
When you get the DI do you get to set the mic/position? Or does it come set in the profile?
The DI is just the amp, before it gets to any speakers - like if you just plugged e.g. a JCM800 head straight into the mixing desk instead of into a cab. The speaker/cab/mic(s)/mic position(s) - that's all contained in the IR. If you're not sure what IR's are, google "Celestion digital" or Ownhammer IR" for more info. When you buy a set of IR's, for any given cab or speaker you'll generally get a good range of options of mic type and placement - this is how you customise the tone to your tastes, by finding an IR which complements the raw amp tone contained in the DI profile. There are a bunch of free Celestion IR's included with the Kemper btw, and most companies offer a few free samples too.
This might sound like a stupid question but what are DI profiles used for, exactly?
Unlike a studio profile, which contains the sound of the whole signal chain (amp, the cab/speakers and mics/mic positions), a DI profile is just the amp (e.g. just the head portion) - sounds horrible on it's own, but the idea is you can either play it thru a real cab, or load an Impulse Response (which rig manager will convert to a "Kemper Cab" file) into the cab section. The benefit of this you have more control over the sound. The cab/speaker/mic/mic position choice has a huge effect on the tone, so if you find a DI profile of an amp set up at least close to how you like it, you can then pair it with any IR you like to get a whole range of tones. I've found that this is an easier and quicker way to get the tones I'm after, as opposed to scrolling thru tons of studio profiles where the cab/speaker/mic/mic position choice may or may not be to my liking. btw, a Merged profile contains a DI profile, so you can swap the cab section and get accurate results. You can also swap the cab section in a Studio profile, but here the Kemper "guesses" which portion of the sound is the amp and which is the cab - doesn't yield as good results in my experience. If you're happy with studio profiles, you can probably ignore DI's - but if you're not quite finding the tones you're after, the DI plus IR method can be quite a revelation!
Some of the best DI profiles I've ever gotten were from Lenz Profiles. All of his modded Marshalls are truly out of this world and required VERY minimal tweaking, and a lot of that is just preference anyway. Some really great stuff he has.
Do these lean on the brighter side or darker side out of the box?
Good question - I had a listen to the demos, and they sound great - some cool amps too. However I contacted the guy who makes them, and he will neither sell the DI's separately, nor provide any samples. So am holding off for now. Honestly I don't get why some companies are so funny about providing a few free samples - if someone's just after freebies, they're not going to be buying anything anyway - but if someone's genuinely interested, they might get a new customer.
I did look up details of the pickups mentioned in the youtube video descriptions - they're DiMarzio, and quite bass heavy - so presuming these were the pickups he used to dial in the sounds, you might assume the profiles will sound brighter on more neutral pickups. But that's just a guess, really impossible to tell how any profile's going to sound thru your particular pickups before trying it. Kemper really should set up a system to demo profiles before buying!
Display MoreHmmm...what type of tones are you after? Do you like more sparkle? What about the low end?
Old MBritt profiles are pretty dark at low volumes. They're really meant to come alive at gig level volumes. His profile packs of the last few years are brighter, but still a little on the dark side. Tone Junkie profiles are pretty close to MBritt but I don't like them quite as much for Studio profile sounds. MBritt also has ample low end and I think the cab he uses is a big part of that. But I don't think it's too much, at least going direct to the board. Sometimes I had to cut the bass but I haven't used his profiles in a while because I'm using my Kab direct now. I found Top Jimi profiles to be thinner and not full for live/loud use. In general, I haven't really liked many of the metal profiles I tried from folks who provide those. Too much low end and too little mids but my typical amp tone is low(er) bass, ample mids, and treble/presence to taste and for the guitar/pickups...but I like some upper cut.
Part of the issue for you could be that you like that sparkle at maybe less than live volumes. In that case, you'll have to tweak further. I'm not afraid to turn the knobs and can mold some profiles my way.
You might try a Selah Sounds profile or two. They do a Single Coil and HB version of their profiles and make more tweaks across the advanced parameters. I like them for recording something to fit in a mix. Nice EQ profile for that and they sound pretty good a home jamming volume. But, I'd say they are in the MBritt/Tone Junkie universe in terms of how they're made.
My recollection of the Celestion IRs was that they were thinner and brighter than MBritt studio profiles or Ownhammer IRs. If you like that sound a bit, you might consider the York IRs.
Honestly, the best way I can describe the sound I'm after is when a profile sounds at least roughly like how I would dial in the amp it's profiling - which is generally a fairly balanced tone - most amps I've used I roll the mid back to about 4, treble maybe 6-ish, and bass kind of depends on the amp, but generally between 4 and 6 - presence (if the amp has it) again varies, but usually not too far either way from 5. When I talk about profiles that don't work, I mean that they're so tonally imbalanced that they simply don't end up sounding anything like the amp they're modelling. As for types of tone, I like a broad range, as I record a variety of music and need a good range of choices (funk/rock (modern and classic)/metal/blues mainly I guess) - but many profile packs I've tried end sounding nothing like the audio demos, so it's not just that I don't like the type of tone they're seeking to recreate - I liked it in the audio demos, but then I get nothing like this type of tone thru any of my guitars. I've heard recordings people have made with M Britt where it sounds great, but thru my pickups (humbuckers or single coils), his stuff all sounds very dull, no bite, no juice. I also hate the settings he dials in... e.g. always clarity on around 3 - I find this takes all the body and grunt out of a sound - I do like this parameter, but I use it in very small amounts, usually around 0.5 does the trick. And yes, I've tried adjusting his settings, but still no luck! Really have tried everything with them, but at some point - and when others such as LRS/Choptones/TMS work great with very little tweaking - I figure I'm wasting my time. And as for this thing about M Britt sounding best at loud gig volumes... well to be fair I haven't tried it like that, but that just sounds like a cop out to me - why shouldn't it also sound good at moderate studio-recording levels? Yes, Feltcher-Munson curve etc... nope it's not that, they just don't work with all pickups.
As for York IR's, I did mention I'd tried some of these - the cheap Mesa pack, and the M25 Marshall - didn't hate them, but all came out far too boomy/muddy for my liking - and I did try them with Amplitube too, where you can dial amp settings, so it's not just that I was trying with the wrong profiles. Btw, with Celestion, I prefer the smaller cabs, so that's probably part of it. Many of my favourite guitar sounds probably were recorded with a 4x12, but if a 1x12 IR gets me closer to that sound, so be it!
Horses for courses as they say!
