In the second picture I see, you are sending a CC#24 value 0 immediately followed by a bank select LSB + program change. Loading the new Slot will also load the effect modules included and therefor overwrite the module MOD off immediately. This order of commands is meanigless except if module MOD is locked.
how do I activate and deactivate the “mod” with out using CC?
Attached are screen shots of my midi data. Kemper is being sent on Channel 9
Display MoreHi guys!
I'm working as a guitar tech with a band that uses Kempers and MIDI automation at live shows. All the players have their own unit + spare. The problem appears with every unit.
We have this exact same problem. It's happening with multiple performances randomly. High Gain sound is suddenly clean, wet lead is dry, AC sim is distorted. Even The Kemper front panel and remote is showing the correct slot and sound + effects, the audio is wrong.
We use PC to call the performance, but after this problem appeared, we have tired also CC #47 #50-54 with no difference.
When the issue is on, manually moving to next slot and back to the original, the sound is correct again.
This is a massive problem since we have a stadium concert coming in a month!
Hope someone will figure out what's the reason. Thank you for your help and it's very comforting to hear that others also have faced the same issues.
Heidi Meri
wow sorry you’re having the same issue. But also glad I don’t sound as crazy now.
Are you by chance using the mod slot on the kemper for anything? I’ve noticed this causing the issue on my end.
The volume pedal setting stays wide open. But no sound comes out. Touch the rig volume knob even a little and the sound returns.
But have also had the “clean” sound issue when it should be a lead patch per say. Almost sounds like a di guitar.
I am looking to resolve this as quick as possible. Hopefully we can find a solution
Display MoreYes, check the level of Volume Pedal in such cases, which can be controlled via CC#7.
Volume Pedal can also be linked and controlled via CC#1 (Wah Pedal). Deactivate WahPedal to Volume, if you don't need it.
Check what happens, if you switch Tuner Mode on and off via chicken head or foot button. Does the sound return? Perhaps your software is using CC# 31 to activate Tuner Mode with Mute Signal activated and forgets to leave it.
Check if active effect loops are involved and if the external gear is intact.
Turning the knob to tuner and back has no effect
Looking a bit closer here yesteday. It seems like this is happening when " Mod" is automated on and off from play back ( mostly on )
The output level like glitches out to 0.. but If I just touch the rig volume knob it resets to where it should be..
In system settings when this happens. it shows volume pedal at 127 the whole time..
Any ideas?
It is the nature of MIDI program changes to load programs, complete sounds, in our case Slots of Performances. MIDI control changes are dedicated to continuous parameters or on/off states of effects. So it's not either or. If you intend to load complete programs plus activating/deactivating effects within those programs you normally have to use both.
Our method to preload Performances and load Slots via control changes #47-54 is a special add-on. It has been invented to enable universal MIDI footcontrollers with memory limitations (e.g. Behringer FCB 1010 with just 100 presets and Uno4Kemper) to address the complete Performance range from Performance 1 Slot 1 to Performance 125 Slot 5. This method adds some complexity as CC#50-54 could load a Rig or trigger Morphing depending on the current state AND each simulated button push needs to send a value between 1-127 while each button release needs to send value 0 to make it work correctly. We have no reports, that these mechanisms don't work correctly e.g. by the Uno4Kemper users.
Thank you. I believe I am sending the CC value and the 0 close value correctly.
Like I have said this is intermittently. I ran some tests yesterday. And out of 20 times of running the same change sequence from playback 2 times it had the issue I mentioned.. It changes ( atleast visually ) the performance, Selects the correct slot and activates the correct MOD pedal.. But No sound comes out.. I need to check on the Global Volume pedal info that someone mentioned.. but the fact that it happens intermittently is the hard part for me to figure out..
Most times it works.. some it doesnt.. and its usually in this patch im talking about which is the top of the show.. then in one other song.
Display MoreYou are ofcourse right. That needs a midi CC.
If you are programming this in a DAW here is a little advice. If you have quantized both Pc and Cc events to the same point, you will get into trouble eventually. Put the PC 100ms before the dedired point, and the Cc 100 ms after, and you should be home safe.
The very short explanation for this (because it has more aspects than one) is that even though the events are quantized in the DAW, both the midi buffers in the midi interface and the Kemper might prioritise the pc to come after the cc. And then the cc effectively becomes canceled out by the pc.
Another aspect is that all slot changes in the kemper (or all midi gear for that matter) has a certain latency. So while the Kemper fetch the data for the desired slot, it might do the CC first. And then again the Pc happens AFTER the Cc, thus resetting the changes made by the Cc.
So why put the changes 200ms apart? Because that is the maximum time i have measured in the kemper, for the slot change to happen.
I had to test this, because i have had a couple of costum midi boxes built, because i had special needs for things that the Kemper just can not do. And i stumbled on exactly this, and because of that i had a “midi delay” for a certain cc value build. (In my case the delay slot on/off). I wanted that slots on/off state to become completely independend of what was stored in the slots. And the only way to do that was to have a box that repeated the state it was in before a pc was sent, when a new pc was sent. BUT it was unreliable. Untill i delayed the “resend slot state” with 200ms. Then the problem was totally gone.
I hope that made sense.
In very short. You need to make sure that if a midi pc and cc happens at the same time, the midi cc is effectuated by the kemper AFTER the midi pc.And to do that, you need to send the cc a little later than the pc.
Thanks for this, this one I am aware of and have the CC changes happen after PC always. Thanks for the heads up thought!
Even in performance mode, you really only need PC meesages to change rigs. It is very understandable laid out. Performance 1 slot 1 is midipc 1. Performance 1 slot 2 is midipc 2and so on. Performance 2 slot 1 is midi pc 6 etc etc etc…
I’ve never used anything else but pc for switching between performances and rigs.
This doesnt allow you to activate and deactivate pedals or automate anything other than Perforramcne and rig changes
That might be the error. You mix up PC and CC. Either you use two CC signals or one PC signal (see manual page 342). E.g. for the third bank in your 5th performance:
CC#47 value: 4 (5-1, since we start counting from 0)
and then
CC#52
Or wirth PC commands (page 343):PC#12 ( (#Performance * 5) - 5 + (#Slot - 1) := ((3*5)-5 + (3-1))
Both together does not work!
Not fully sure I follow this . But believe I am using CC only.. Using the Max4live Kemper changer for Ableton
Display MoreGenerally, I don't understand why you are mixing two methods to load Slots:
method 1. With bank select and program change you can load any of the 625 Slots in Performance Mode.
method 2. Why are you using MIDI control changes - that would be CC# 50-54 - to load Slots within the same Performance, if your software has capability 1?
CC# 50-54 are adding the following (intended) complexities. Text passage picked from the Main Manual chapter MIDI:
If Rig Button Morph is activated in System Settings, and the PROFILER receives subsequent control changes #50-#54 following the initial Slot load, these will trigger Morphing. So, the same button could be used to first load a Rig, and then act as a Morph Button for that Rig. To support all functions, values 1-127 should be sent when the button is hit, and value 0 should follow when the button is released. The setting of the “Momentary” option in Rig Settings determines whether the Morphing latches the morph sound and base sound, or if it immediately returns to the base sound as soon you release the button.
Closing these CC#s 50-54 by sending value 0 - but not too early - might be adding complexity, that you don't seem to need. If you intend to use Morphing, you should use CC#80 instead, which works with any Slot and never loads another Slot.
I also don't understand, why you don't mute sound via a simple CC#7 value 0, which emulates volume pedal in heel position. A dedicated "Mute Performance" is not needed. But perhaps your software sometimes does and you are not aware. The state of volume pedal is global and survives Rig and Slot changes!
I'm wondering, if CC#47 is also involved. This just preloaads another Performance and needs to be followed by one of CC#50-54 to effectively load a Slot. Perhaps the display of the preloaded Performance is irritating. It's not yet loaded.
And if you send MIDI commands related to a Slot which is not enabled, this Slot will intentionally not get loaded.
We have no reports, that one can effectively load any other Slot optically, while acoustically the former Slot remains. And very many people are using MIDI to load Slots.
Method 1 would require a different performance for each yes? Aka With bank and program changes you cant select rig with in a perforamcen or turn on and off a pedal.. Correct?
You need to use CC changes to do this
So we have the Performance as "song 1" With in that there are Rigs being used for Verse / chorus / Clean Dirty ETC.
Then in sections pedals / mods get turned on and off ETC.
All of this requires CC as far as I know.
Can you please explain, how exactly you change the patch (maybe with an numerical example)? Do you use the two CC commands or the PC command? I use the PC command and never had such problems. Maybe you also could try this. Do you maybe have some other MIDI signals (for other devices e.g.?)
Ableton Sends a Bank / program change to change the Kemper for performance slot changes. Then within that every CC changes some other type of change
As another user said, try using an app for seeing what midi data is really being sent. Perhaps you have an expression pedal/thingy where the midi thinning of data has gone broken, and it’s sending a continous barrage of midi cc data. In that case most devices that recieve that information will have their buffers overflowing.
I need to double check still. We had a couple days off and I was away from the rig.. But yea.. my thinking is that sometimes its getting two many changes at once.. etc.. or interference from somewhere.. The odd part is its not consistent..
Top of our show, playback sends the Kemper to a "Mute" performance / a rig with no output level so that we dont have any un needed sound at the top of the show..
Verse 1 of first song it opens up into a normal guitar sound.. The Kemper always changes patches.. but it doesnt always output volume.. even though it changes and shows that it changed... The green lights on the output level go up when theyre supposed to.. but doesnt actually output sound..
Show file on playback and Kemper never changes.. yet this happens intermittently
Display MoreI don't understand what that means. What is a "Preset" in context of Performance Mode? And what is a "patch within a preset"?
Perhaps a misunderstanding?
I'm wondering if you are really using MIDI program changes. Or are you using the relative method via MIDI control changes # 47-54 or even mixing the relative and absolute methods to load Slots in Performance Mode?
The relative method had been developped for universal MIDI foot controllers with memory restrictions. Using software to send MIDI I recommend using the absolute method with MIDI bank select LSB plus MIDI program change. For each Slot you find the corresponding bank select LSB and program change numbers displayed in the dark box on the left side. If there are no numbers, please disconnect your Remote temporarily.
Make sure the Slot you intend to load is enabled. You cannot load a Slot via MIDI, which is not enabled.
So Using a Max for Live device in Ableton send bank / program changes to change Performances, Then CC changes to also change rigs with in the performance slots, and activate and deactivate Reverbs / FX.
Its always changing to the right performance and slot when it should. But it almost doesn't complete the change.. The text / highlighted rig on the screen always change.. but it doesnt always change the audio.. if that makes sense.. So say one rig the Output level is NULL then the next the output level is at +5 or something.. It will show that it changes.. the lights on the Kemper change ETC.. but the actual sound output isnt always happening..
Ya ill check that, Its just odd as it happens randomly . And nothing in the session has ever changed.
Performance mode.
Not a crazy amount.
When Playback starts the song.
The Kemper gets a change to the Preset and then the patch with in that.
Then maybe a patch change at the chorus, then back for the verse.
Very basic stuff.
Any One have ideas here/
I am using a Kemper Rack amp that receives all patch changes from playback VIA midi.
Having an issue where sometimes the patch changes on the screen but it doesn't actually change in the Kemper.. Like its getting to much information to quickly or something..
It will change from my mute patch to a song patch but doesnt re-activate the output. OR will show that it changes from a DIST patch to Clean but doesnt actually change.
Everything on the Kemper shows that it changes but the tone / output doesnt change.
Anyone experienced this or have any ideas?
