KPA: too much twang?

    Whoa, lots of replies! :)


    burningyen: Yes, the twanginess was worse with the K10, but still there with the DXR10.


    whippinpost91850: I believe it's the same thing, but for most of my tones I prefer a less twangy tone.


    K3MP3R: Some good advice there, do you happen to have some specific frequency numbers? And unfortunately no, I don't have isolation for profiling so I can't compare what comes out from my monitors with the profiled tone.


    Tpen: I'm not sure what you mean by dynamics and attack in the amp block, but to my ears the only really useful parameter in there is definition (sparingly), the others seem to make the amp sound a bit artificial.


    Guitartone: No, I'm using the same guitars, pickups and haven't messed with the pickup heights, it's just that for the first time I'm working on getting my profiles as close as possible to the real amp. Not that they all sound teleish, but I hear emphasis in some frequencies that remind me of how a tele sounds. I wish I could define it better, but that's the best aproximation I can make.


    MaxTwang: First of all, no offense intended :D Different mics and mic positioning are in my todo list, will probably get to them by the weekend. My current profiles were taken with a beta 57 (old model) off-axis about an inch away from the grille cloth. I'm not a big fan of messing with the cab block parameters, even a little often makes the profile sound a bit artificial to my ears.


    Kempermaniac: Thanks for the tip, by extreme how many dBs do you mean?


    waraba: I do play single coils occasionally but am more of a humbucker type of guy. I'm looking for a closed but still well defined, violin-like lead tone like the ones from Eric Johnson, Allan Holdsworth and Shawn Lane.


    guitarmania62: Yes, I keep the clean sens setting fairly low on all my rigs.



    Thanks for the replies guys, now I have a lot of homework to do in the weekend.


    Question for the DXR10 guys in the audience: have you tried to turn the low-cut switch to 100Hz? One thing that I've found out was probably getting in the way of getting good tones out of it was there was so much low end (below what a guitar speaker is supposed to reproduce) that I had to shave too much bass from my profiles and that ended up making them sound weird and thin/anemic. Anyone had a similar experience?

    Quote from Deny

    Kempermaniac: Thanks for the tip, by extreme how many dBs do you mean?


    About -12 to -18 dB. Try 21.000 Hz too. I don't know if this frequency causes the unwanted twang, but it helps angainst fizz.

    I could have farted and it would have sounded good! (Brian Johnson)

    Deny


    I do not have any numbers right now. I am still researching the best approach to tame this instead of more gear or tips quick fixes. Sometimes it just needs to work but with my brain it is only a matter of time before I need to know how and why it works. The understanding of how the different eq's operate in the kpa is going to be key. Not talking about amp eq either, we want our intended sound still delivered.


    Here is a great read about eq types that is really easy to digest.


    http://www.presonus.com/commun…/equalizer-terms-and-tips



    Basically with that knowledge it should be doable to either shape the eq curve and roll off the lows and highs to more closely simulate a cab speaker or just find and roll of of a sloppy low end or a piercing high end if that is what is the issue.


    I'm trying to take the perspective of having a set frequency response curve that can be locked in and gives set perameters for what is delivered to my monitor rather than trying to tweak a bunch of profiles seperately. This just includes where in the spectrum I would start tapering off the highs and lows, I don't want to be compounding eq settings as that would mean that the settings would not really be compatible with too many profiles.


    If you just want a certain frequency or area of this twang* tamed, then that should be doable too. Use a high pass and slowly lower till you find the culprit area and then use a eq that you can set to that specific area and lower the level of output in that area. But if you find that you need the pass is needed on the dxr, then there is a decent chance that the lows may be exaggerated on other speakers too. So a curve may be worth the work and then you can leave the dxr full range but at lower levels for those frequencies.

    Quote from burningyen

    The horns in the CLR look more square to me:


    [Blocked Image: http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t48/Guitardojo/Atomic/CLR_Wedge2.jpg]

    That is just the plastic horn that gives the tweeter underneath its direction for sound projection. Its is still a coaxial speaker underneath. Maybe they gave the speaker a new name with the different designed driver used but it is still going to perform similarly. Not trying to knock the clr, just explaining what the driver is. The benefits of a coaxial over component are apparent when you move around the room/stage as the coax delivers highs and lows together equally for the player. With a frfr it is possible to have to much or to little of the highs mixed with the lows depending on your position in comparison to the speaker. For someone further away, the sounds blend by then so are not as important if it is coax or component.

    Sorry I wasn't clear. In the Stack selector, go to Aplifier and play with the following settings:


    Definition
    Power sagging
    Pick (this is what I was referring to when I said "attack")


    -T

    Sorry to divert the thread a bit but I'd love to know
    1) if the CLR's 12" speaker has a corrugated paper surround, like a guitar speaker, or a foam surround, like most studio speakers.
    2) if the CLR's square horn is mounted from the grill, or right through the dust cap and coil of the 12" speaker to its frame, like a car speaker.


    I sometimes play through an acoustic guitar amp, that has a coax speaker that looks like a big car speaker in the first picture above. Its little coax tweeter was so shrill with the Kemper that i had to disconnect it. Great practice toy by the way.

    Some updates on specs:


    This is not coaxial this is component, ie, 12 driver underneath and tweeter supported on top via mounts on top plywood


    Plywood is 3/8 thick where woofer is mounted


    Woofer mounted from bottom


    Paper cone and paper (maybe paper composite) surround


    Tweeter is Celestion T5487A and I would guess has matching Celestion woofer

    Edited 2 times, last by K3MP3R ().

    Thanks for posting that!! That's really interesting! This deserves its own post!


    The horn blocks the 12"'s center, like those commercial Beam Blockers.


    The underside of the horn must help disperse the 12".


    Can you see if the 12" is ported by an apperture to the rear cab space?


    This design must sound quite different than having the horn and woofer side by side like a conventional monitor regadless of "audio coaxiality" notions


    Yes the CLR speaker has separate pieces (so is it component or semi coaxial?).
    This is a saved quote from Jay (I don't have the TGP link).


    "It has also been widely disclosed that the CLR uses separate pieces: a woofer and a HF horn/driver assembly in a coincident - not just "coaxial" - configuration." "AFAIK, an end user can purchase the Celestion coax assembly".

    I wonder what coaxial speaker the Matrix Q12A use?
    Sorry for OT.

    Quote from Deny


    Unfortunately I can't compare the sound of the miked amp against the profile as I don't have an isolated room for it,


    Just record something and compare with the profile.


    I found that the KPA is very close to the miked amp.... and with the right mics & placement the profiles can also sound very close to the sound of the amp in the room.

    (All trademarks are trademarks of their respective owners, which are in no way associated or affiliated with soundside.de)


    Great Profiles --> soundside.de

    When researching the coaxial for the CLR there was some chatter online about the Matrix using a Beyma speaker. Probably looking something similar to this one.


    [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/cG3i7z6.gif]



    They also have a coxial with a built in horn though it is $ 549 while the first one is $ 159. Just some more ideas besides the celestion offerings if someone was looking at making their own coaxial/component cab.


    [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/csdZNxS.gif]


    Edit: I do not see any ports but a quick hand test playing some bass heavy music through it should reveal if there are. They probably could have placed a couple small ports on the sides of the passive amp to aid in cooling, though a port will change the sound quite a bit so I would guess they did try one at one time when designing the cab and decided then whether or not to use one.

    Edited 2 times, last by K3MP3R ().

    So I've messed a bit with one profile I took from my Laney VC100 and here are my findings:


    First and most obvious, when a profile sounds harsh and shrill, adding bass and/or mids helps. A comfortable tone is often the result of balanced frequencies content, if that makes any sense.


    So here are the things I've tried:


    1. Added some bass and midrange in the EQ block (note that for that to work with the DXR10 it has to have the 100Hz low cut engaged otherwise it will sound too boomy)


    2. Shaved off some presence in the EQ block, set to -2.0 in this rig


    3. In the amp block, reduced some of the "pick" parameter. String noise is what annoys me the most in a guitar tone, it's what I find the most distracting and uninspiring so I have this set to -1.5


    4. Still in the amp block, lowered the definition from 10.0 to 6.8


    5. Yet another amp block parameter, added some power sagging, around 1.5 so the bass notes will "breathe" a little and have more punch


    6. The delay block needs to be adjusted in order not to introduce some unwanted high frequencies - not sure why this happens, but it does. So I usually set bandwidth to 3.8 and keep the mix around 35% with a bit of ducking (0.3 - 0.4)


    7. I often put a Green Screamer in front of the amp in order to get a more creamy distortion with more harmonics, but I used to keep the tone control too high (at -1.2), adjusting it to -2.2 makes it sound much better. Also the volume at 0.0 makes the rig sound a bit anemic depending on the amp so in this particular rig I set it to +0.5


    8. I set the clean sense at 2.5 for the guitar I'm using (an Ibanez RG1570 with a DiMarzio Fred in the bridge and a PAF 36th anniversary in the neck), I usually set clean sense so the input LED barely lights yellow when I strum hard



    After doing all this I got a pretty usable tone, dare I say fairly closer to the real thing. Tomorrow I might try taking new profiles of my amps.


    If you have to do that much to get a profile to sound like your amp than either it is one of those amps in which the KPA has a hard time profiling or your not doing a like comparison ( isolated mixed amp or mixed recorded track vs kemper).

    Quote from Will_Chen


    If you have to do that much to get a profile to sound like your amp than either it is one of those amps in which the KPA has a hard time profiling or your not doing a like comparison ( isolated mixed amp or mixed recorded track vs kemper).

    I don't own a studio with a separate control room, so no, I can't do a decent comparison between the profiled tone and the original amp through monitors. What I usually do is compare the profiled tone with the original amp, although that takes a lot of turning off the DXR10 for listening to the original amp and turning off the amp for listening to the profiled tone, I wish the KPA would have a "single room mode" that took care of that for me but whatever.


    Anyway I digress, I started with this one profile because it was the one selected when I turned on the unit, it's a profile I took with my K10 and the original amp doesn't sound too good to begin with, so I thought it would be an interesting challenge to make it sound good because it would mean the rig would end up sounding better than the original, and I think I've succeeded in doing just that.


    Truth is, I don't care what I have to do in order to have an inspiring tone coming out from what I now call my compact setup (KPA + DXR10), as long as it's there, as long as it's "happening". If I have to tweak it a lot, so be it. If I have to redo my profiles with a different mic, I'll do it. Hell, even if I have to have the KPA blessed by a priest, if it works, I'll do it. Whatever it takes, all I want is that this setup works for me without compromising my tone.

    Quote from Deny

    don't own a studio with a separate control room, so no, I can't do a decent comparison between the profiled tone and the original amp .


    Again, the best way to find if you have a problem with the KPA (or setup) is to do this:
    -Play something into a looper pedal - or record a clean guitar for reamping
    -Record your setup (amp-speaker-microphone) without the KPA
    -Profile, refine, record the same source via the KPA
    -compare the recordings
    if it sounds very different - then report again (it may be then a KPA or setup problem)
    if it sounds about the same - then improve your recording chain
    (room, microphone(s), placement, preamp, cables,...) until you like your recorded tone.


    The KPA can only sound as good as your recording chain.


    Note:
    For great profiles it's also important to use great monitor speakers in a damped room - since when you adjust your profile to a bad sounding speaker - then this profile may sound nice when you use THIS type of speakers - but not so great or even bad for all other speaker types.

    (All trademarks are trademarks of their respective owners, which are in no way associated or affiliated with soundside.de)


    Great Profiles --> soundside.de

    Edited 4 times, last by Armin ().

    Quote from Deny

    I don't own a studio with a separate control room, so no, I can't do a decent comparison between the profiled tone and the original amp through monitors. What I usually do is compare the profiled tone with the original amp, although that takes a lot of turning off the DXR10 for listening to the original amp and turning off the amp for listening to the profiled tone, I wish the KPA would have a "single room mode" that took care of that for me but whatever.


    Anyway I digress, I started with this one profile because it was the one selected when I turned on the unit, it's a profile I took with my K10 and the original amp doesn't sound too good to begin with, so I thought it would be an interesting challenge to make it sound good because it would mean the rig would end up sounding better than the original, and I think I've succeeded in doing just that.


    Truth is, I don't care what I have to do in order to have an inspiring tone coming out from what I now call my compact setup (KPA + DXR10), as long as it's there, as long as it's "happening". If I have to tweak it a lot, so be it. If I have to redo my profiles with a different mic, I'll do it. Hell, even if I have to have the KPA blessed by a priest, if it works, I'll do it. Whatever it takes, all I want is that this setup works for me without compromising my tone.


    You will never achieve a like sound because of the radically different dispersion patterns of the 2 monitoring systems. Its like complaining about the stereo image of AM radio. Mic your amp and record a clip and then a clip on the kemper with a profile made with the mic in the same position. If you want the Kemper to sound more like the off axis sound you hear in your room, mic it that was and profile it. Just don't expect to cut though the mix very well. With the KPA you are now hearing what your audience has been hearing for years rather than the off axis tone guitarists are used to due to the speakers being aimed at their knees.

    This is all good advice, there's no point stating that the Kemper is not sounding right or capturing the amp correctly if you have no idea what the amp sounds like through the recording setup in the first place.