New Kemper to FoH - Risky?

    Hi,


    I've bounced back and forth between digital and tube set ups a few time. I used my Kemper very happily with my last Prog Rock band although I always played through a Powerhead into a 2 x 12 cab and mic'd it like a "normal" amp.


    I got a DXR10 but even with pure cab ended up using the cab or a combination of the cab and the DXR10. I never got to gig with the Kemper and the DXR10 though.


    The band faded away.


    I was using a simpler set up with a reggae band and an indie rock band and was using an Engl Ironball and pedalboard. The Kemper wasn't used for a long while and got sold.


    Roll forward and my Prog Rock originals band has a second guitarist and has become more Metal. The other guitarist has a very mid-dominated sound and breaking through in rehearsals is a challenge. We had a recent run of 3 gigs and although things were ok in my monitor recordings show my guitar sounding very thin and weak compared to his. I find that crushingly depressing.


    He is an amazing guitarist....but loud....and can tweak an EQ pedal and his Laney Ironheart 15H to a great sound I just can't break though well with. Particularly lead tones.


    I have been considering a Kemper and through an acquaintance I have an opportunity to purchase a Toaster (unpowered) on Weds. I have my old rigs....or at least a version of them, backed up somewhere.


    I've just heard we may sub for another band for a gig in "The Talking Heads" Southampton on the 28th.


    I'm wondering if I just risk it and use the Kemper straight to FoH. I have a Boss FS-6 - so a two pedal switcher....and a Boss EV-5. The band is mainly all out heavy....with one clean section I do....and one section with a bit less gain and some blasting guitar solos.


    I was thinking I could have a couple of patches set up......clean morphing to crunch on one.......heavy morphing to more mids and more delay on the other......I could even put a standard volume pedal in an fx slot set as fx loop for more control.


    My question is how dangerous this would be? So far I've preferred my guitar cab mic'd to the DXR10.


    I don't know the PA or the sound guy at this venue.


    On the other hand....it's one gig and maybe with a 15 dB feed to front of house it'll sound awesome. As back up, I can have my cab and Engl with me......for example to use my Kemper powered through its fx loop into my cab.


    I also have a Line6 G30 so I could get out front and try and hear how it sounds out there.


    So many choices.....and probably an impossible thing to answer.....other than opinions on using high gain rigs to FoH where the Pa/sound guy is an unknown quantity.


    Hopefully I haven't put everyone to sleep and you may have some advice :)


    Cheers,
    Andy

    I think you should go for it!
    I've been in the same situation - floating between using a traditional cab and a DXR10 - and have arrived at the stage where I'm just as happy with either. The crucial thing is to choose and tweak your profiles carefully, preferably with the rest of the band, and at stage volume.
    My only real concern would be the quality of the monitors.

    Quote from Ingolf

    Going with the Profiler to FOH is as non- risky as it gets.
    Just make sure you don't make the FOH desk clip by not sending more than -18dB to FOH.

    Never understood the suggestion to go to FoH with such low levels. Every FoH mixer should have Line Inputs, either physical or in the channel settings. Always keep the signal as high as possible (at least -6dBu should always be possible, pro audio levels go til +4dBu so you still have a 4dB headroom even at 0dBu). Taking the Kemper output down to -18dB just increases the noise floor by an avoidable 12dB


    Just my 2 cents and 12dB

    So I prep using my Kemper with the DXR10 with the band? Rehearsals are often loud! If I don't like the DXR10 I won't like the PA or will the PA probably sound better as it'll be so much more powerful? Our drummer is so loud I can't really hear my Engl on stage anyway, just the monitor.


    In either case my rigs were selected at volume, I just preferred them through my guitar cab.


    I'm confused with dB vs - dB and what value to use?


    Thanks
    Andy

    The kemper signal is hot, damn hot, so while noise floor is something to maybe consider, if you don't have the output set in the minus it can cause issues for sound guys and desks as they try to move the fader by fractions of a mm to get a sound that isn't too quiet or too loud.

    Quote from Ingolf

    Just make sure you don't make the FOH desk clip by not sending more than -18dB to FOH.

    I go with Ingo.
    Two weeks ago it was the 3rd sound guy of 3 I had to work with since I have the Kemper who asked me to set the output of main low.( -22 db at output indication - whatever it is in reallity)
    My RFC active monitor with 400 W is loud enough with -15 db at monitor out (Level at monitor approx. 60%)

    Quote from andyg_prs

    So I prep using my Kemper with the DXR10 with the band? Rehearsals are often loud! If I don't like the DXR10 I won't like the PA or will the PA probably sound better as it'll be so much more powerful?

    As I see it, there are some variables which you can't control in advance - whether you use a traditional amp and cab or a Kemper - such as the acoustics of the venue, the P.A., the sound guy... If you were mic'ing your traditional amp & cab then mic' (and mic' placement) are considerations, too.
    None of these factors changes when running your Kemper direct to F.O.H., except you now have way more control over them on the night. Especially if you have got to know how to tweak the Kemper to sound its best in different situations.
    I feel more comfortable taking my Kemper into an unknown situation like that than I would a traditional amp, now.

    Quote from lightbox

    Never understood the suggestion to go to FoH with such low levels. Every FoH mixer should have Line Inputs, either physical or in the channel settings. Always keep the signal as high as possible (at least -6dBu should always be possible, pro audio levels go til +4dBu so you still have a 4dB headroom even at 0dBu). Taking the Kemper output down to -18dB just increases the noise floor by an avoidable 12dB
    Just my 2 cents and 12dB

    I had soundguys explicitly tell me I' clipping their desk inputs when I went higher than -15dB, so I only pass on my personal experience.

    Thanks guys. So I think the order of events is:


    1. I get the Kemper on Wednesday.


    2. I choose a couple of profiles with morph, set up my FS-6 and EV-5 and get them sounding good, loud through my DXR10 on Wednesday night. There were a few switches on the back of DXR10 - not sure which best imitates a PA?


    3. I set up my main out at -22dB and link it to my main volume control on the front of the Kemper. Do I have to do anything to ensure pure cab is applied globally for all rigs to avoid issues?


    4. I have my band rehearsal on Thursday night. I encourage my band to play LOUD! I hope it sounds ok through the DXR10 so I stay with that and don't go to my cab.


    5. Sunday I pray it sounds good with the PA. I stand there in total silence while I wait for the sound guy to connect me up to FoH first and then PA. That's going to be nerve wracking!


    I guess I'll have my Engl (to act as a poweramp) and 2 x 12 with me just in case.


    Anything else I'm missing?


    Cheers,
    Andy

    Quote from Ingolf

    I had soundguys explicitly tell me I' clipping their desk inputs when I went higher than -15dB, so I only pass on my personal experience.

    I wonder which metering is the Kemper using. From your experience I'd say it's using dBFS. Sound guy probably wants to keep track levels around 0 dBu so that the master buss level stays inside the red area.


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    Quote from Netheravon

    @andyg_prs


    #3 I wouldn't link main out to the main volume control. You want to be able to adjust the volume for your monitors without messing up lvls foh. Link monitor out, unlink main out. IMO

    I expect FoH to send my mix with the band to my stage monitor....I wasn't planning on have a separate monitor of my own for my Kemper. T


    On stage, having done my soundcheck, during the performance if I can't hear myself, and this doesn't get resolved in the normal way during the set (frantic gestures whilst trying to keep playing) I use my volume pedal (probably a normal volume pedal in an fx slot used as "loop" as I don't yet have a remote) and if it gets silly I turn up the volume out on the Kemper.


    This is the same thing I do with my real amp...I shouldn't have to do it....but my experience live is often I do.


    Also, the other guitarist always ups the volume on his amp between soundcheck and when we actually perform.....if I don't do the same, I just get lost in the mix.....crazy I know, but what can I do?

    Prepping with dxr 10 will not get you assurance that your sounds will work on different FOH. Those speakers are not reference monitors, or even flat response for that matter. As a result of that you will run into unpleasent surprises using different pa, but also different monitors.


    When you dial in on studio reference monitors, if all goes well, all your sounds will be balanced amongst eachother, allowing you to compensate with a master eq when you have to...in theory, you, or the sound guy for FOH...tweaks the master eq for 1 preset...and is done for the eventing with git sound :)
    This goes for FOH as well as your stage monitoring.


    Wether you like monitors or cabs is maybe really another matter. Once you have your sounds balanced, its just what you prefer. Im sure if you a/B frfrf/cab setups you will know in heartbeat what works for you.

    Bugger - just when I was all set to risk straight to FoH.


    I thought the DXR10 was supposed to be FRFR.


    I don't have studio reference monitors and I have no idea how much I would have to pay for ones that could handle the volume representative of my band battling over our drummer!


    So far I've preferred my guitar cab and it looks like that may also have to serve as the source of my sound to FoH....

    Before getting all worried about DXR10 being FRFR consider how you'd deal with things with a traditional cab set up. No, the DXR is not FRFR but neither will whatever PA speakers the venue has. Would this concern you if you were micing up your cab?


    You said you have wireless? IT's simple, don't overcomplicate life;) Dial in a tone you like at rehearsal with your DXR, then at the venue go out FOH and tweak your sound. Same as you would with a cab, right?


    Honestly, if you look at the names of professionals that use Kemper live, surely that should be enough to make people understand this does work well;) GL with your gigs though! Let us know how the rehearsal and gigs go.

    Or...get Bert meulendijks profiles, those are well balanced.
    Hes a well known session player, so those are Road/FOH/recording proof.
    I trust those being good for FOH...and they have been so fat.


    That leaves you with dailing in your stage sound with master eq, with whatever power amp your using.


    Thats what i...and some more guys i know do. Works like a charm and care free.
    All i edited in those profiles were some solo boosts/delay settings and added a screamer stomp to most because i think its convinient to be able to step on some gain...thats it.

    I appreciate that....perhaps when I have more time....I've bought various profile packs but nothing has particularly grabbed me so far. I think I've tweaked various free profiles mainly.


    Here is a quick tone sample of the other guitarist....the tone only gets fatter and more defined when louder in a band scenario....


    Ibanez S series > Boss GE-7 > Mooer Echo > Mooer TS style boost (if it was on) > Ironheart 15H > 2 x 12 no name cab.


    Let me know what you think. I had to zip it to upload - it's an mp3 file.


    Cheers,
    Andy