GRFR vs FRFR - Is FRFR really needed for pure Guitar AMP/CAB profiling/modelling?

Try the following: Take a profil includiong a V30 you know very good and hear it through studio monitors or any other flat FRFR amplifications. Headphones are okay for that too. Now set an EQ block to block X and cut everything above 2 or 2,5 kHz. Does it sound the same? ... If yes, you can use any PA low-mid driver for your amplification.

Quote from Gitarrenschlumpf

Try the following: Take a profil includiong a V30 you know very good and hear it through studio monitors or any other flat FRFR amplifications. Headphones are okay for that too. Now set an EQ block to block X and cut everything above 2 or 2,5 kHz. Does it sound the same? ... If yes, you can use any PA low-mid driver for your amplification.

First off, I want to thank @Gitarrenschlumpf for participating in this forum, and sharing his experience and knowledge. I have heard many good things about BlueAmps, and I am certain they design and sell excellent solutions for musicians and pro-audio consumers.

With that said, I am still not convinced with the "GRFR" (Guitar Range, Flat Response) type solutions that have begun to be marketed to guitarists by various manufacturers. Meaning no disrespect to Blueamps or other manufacturers selling "GRFR" solutions...I do think this product category is more a marketing and psychological placebo, which is aimed at guitarists who have adopted digital amps, but are finding it difficult in making the transition to FRFR. These "GRFR" are typically promoted as better providing that "amp-in-the-room" experience. In other words, being more like a traditional guitar cabinet.

My opinion (opinion, mind you) is that if you want the traditional "amp-in-the-room" guitar cab experience, simply turn off the Cab Module on your KPA and connect it to a traditional guitar cab (although you may need an external amp). However, this is going to limit you tonal flexibility, as the physical guitar cabinet is going to be contributing the majority of your over-all tone/sound.

However, if you want to take advantage of the seemingly endless permutations of tube amps with various virtual cabinets, then you go full out FRFR. Period, end of story.

With all that said, I do commend manufacturers such as Blueamps for providing a flexible FRFR solution, by which the owner/user has the choice of switching it to operate in a GRFR mode. This is very cool.

Cheers,
John

Quote from Tritium

My opinion (opinion, mind you) is that if you want the traditional "amp-in-the-room" guitar cab experience, simply turn off the Cab Module on your KPA and connect it to a traditional guitar cab (although you may need an external amp). However, this is going to limit you tonal flexibility, as the physical guitar cabinet is going to be contributing the majority of your over-all tone/sound.

Yes, that´s right. FRFR and GFR can only replace the sound of a guitar cab, that´s been recorded through a microfone. To get the feeling of a real guitar cabinet, is the holy grail, everyone is searching for. IMHO

Quote from cags12

I do not own a KPA yet but I have read about the "Pure Cab" feature introduced that aims to sort of remove the microphone feeling and give a better amp in the room experience with an FRFR solution.

How do you find this feature, does it really help on this that we are discussing?

Hello cags12,

In short, I love the Pure Cabinet feature...and yes, it really works in imparting, to an FRFR system, that aural "presence" and "immediacy" that is associated with the traditional "amp into guitar cab" setup.

Cheers,
John

How do true guitar cabs behave at low volume with a kemper ?

Like the same guitar cab with a traditional amp.

Quote from Janne

Like the same guitar cab with a traditional amp.

Ok, but i thought one of the pros of the Kemper is to be able to get a "cranked" tone at low volumes. How does this "cranked" sound behave when being played through a guitar cab at low volume ?
I'm a bedroom player with no true (= valve) amp experience.

Quote from vjau75

Ok, but i thought one of the pros of the Kemper is to be able to get a "cranked" tone at low volumes. How does this "cranked" sound behave when being played through a guitar cab at low volume ?I'm a bedroom player with no true (= valve) amp experience.

Hello vjau75,

In general, the ability of the Kemper to reproduce the sound and dynamics of a "cranked" tube amp has nothing to due with the final, target sound reproduction system (i,e, speaker / monitor). The ability of the Kemper to recreate the tone and dynamics of the reference tube amp is an intrinsic feature and capability of the KPA when it makes the profile of the reference tube amp. When this profile is played back through the Kemper, the gain structure is preserved in the signal, and it can then be amplified to any desired level. In other words, it can be reproduced at bedroom (quiet) levels, or at blistering volume levels.

With all that said, if you are mostly playing at very low volumes, you may want to consider a set of studio monitors, such as the Yamaha HS8s. They will give you much better performance and reproduction for low volume levels, as compared to sending the same signal through a 12" guitar speaker.

Or, perhaps look at the Yamaha DXR10.

In either case, the drivers used in these FRFR monitors are more efficient than a typical, traditional guitar speaker...and you will most likely have a more pleasurable experience when playing through these FRFR systems at extremely low volume levels.

Cheers,
John

You have to realise that somewhere around 50-75% of the sound are formed by the speaker.
Check out SinMix comparison here: http://www.sinmix.pl/2017/04/2…s-and-one-cab-comparison/

Now the 'magic' for me with the KPA and it's cab simulation, using a DXR10 (or another good FRFR speakers) it will give me 95% of the feeling of a full out stack in my apartment at a reasonable volume.
What! not 100%.... Well, what is missing is the sound pressure that will drive your guitar, make you feel the sound in your body and also make you ears think is sounds better...
There is nothing you can do about those issues apart from increasing the volume. KPA or not.

Quote from Janne

using a DXR10 (or another good FRFR speakers) it will give me 95% of the feeling of a full out stack in my apartment at a reasonable volume.

I have been reading a lot of contradictory advices regarding the use of the DXR10 for low volumes.
Some people like you find it adequate for this use.
Other people find it completely inadequate, citing the fan noise produced by the device, and a bad result at low volume.
I'm a little confused since i would not be able to try it on site without buying it first.

Quote from vjau75

I have been reading a lot of contradictory advices regarding the use of the DXR10 for low volumes.Some people like you find it adequate for this use.
Other people find it completely inadequate, citing the fan noise produced by the device, and a bad result at low volume.
I'm a little confused since i would not be able to try it on site without buying it first.

Well, if you are overly concerned about fan noise (which I do not think is a serious issue with the Yammy DXR10), you might also check out the Alto TS210, which does not employ a fan.

The Yammy HS8s studio monitors do not employ a cooling fan, either.

Quote from vjau75

I have been reading a lot of contradictory advices regarding the use of the DXR10 for low volumes.Some people like you find it adequate for this use.
Other people find it completely inadequate, citing the fan noise produced by the device, and a bad result at low volume.
I'm a little confused since i would not be able to try it on site without buying it first.

Yes, you will probably notice that fan when You are not playing, it's about as loud as a computer fan. You will not hear it when you play.
The DXR10 sounds great both cranked and even at low volumes at home. I have Adam A7 speaker as my studio speakers but I very much prefer the KPA through the DXR. Meatier, for lack of a better word.
Never been happier with my sound. I have used digital stuff at home for many years and tube rigs live, and this is the first time I get the same feel and sound in both environments... YMMV of course, but for me the KPA is now my preferred amp.

Can i just say this is hands down one of the most informative threads i have ever read regarding FRFR/GRFR and amplification in general!

All participants that have shared their views and knowledge on the subject are clearly well versed in this and i want to say thank you! This thread has filled some of the gaps in my own knowledge of FRFR/GRFR.

This has reassured me that my decision to use my KPA through a Marshall MS-2 was the right decision as it will make the most of the cabinet simulation.......just kidding!

I am currently waiting for my Atomic CLR Neo wedge to be delivered which i initially intended to use for backline, but since reading a few posts regarding the CLR i may use it as a wedge in front of me as il be going through FOH and il be able to hear myself a lot clearer if the CLR is in front of me!