Recording with Kemper

    Always at the same level - exactly what I'm trying to get you to achieve for your DI tracks, Andy.


    OK...
    1. You said, "First - when I try to record the output of my Kemper the same high gain rig seems to render in a first last powerful / impactful way than that rig works live."


    Obviously I interpreted "... first last powerful / impactful way..." as meaning more-powerful. Best I could do with the cryptic description at the time. Sorry man. I have no answer for you on this one now that I know you meant the opposite, other than in a reamping situation, where the level going to the KPA is the issue IMHO.


    2. I've actually made many posts on that, mate. Once of the most-recent discussions is this one (last week), with an obvious title:


    Kemper>interface>daw db levels please help


    Here's another one from last week:


    How to get good results recording...


    3. You're confusing dynamic range with the voltage level I described when I outlined the various level standards we have to deal with when doing audio. The consumer level I described is much-lower in voltage (14dB down) than line level.


    Plug one of those RCA outs directly into one of the line inputs on your interface if you don't believe me (if you have the necessary adapter plugs). It'll be roughly 14dB lower than the same signal sent from a 1/4" line out back into another one. That is, if your interface follows conventional protocol.


    So, until you actually try my suggestions on page 1 (post #15), I'm sticking with point 3 as being the most-important. If I'm right, it'll be blindingly-obvious to you when the reamped signal finally behaves as you'd have expected it to in the first place.


    Please try those suggestions, Andy; I put a lot of work into that rundown for you - it ended up being the only post I made yesterday due to the time it took, and I was really hoping you'd try the reamping-level suggestions I made.


    Good luck, mate.

    Thanks Monkey Man. I've certainly taken everything you've said seriously. All my gear is in the other guitarist's studio, but I'm going to explain to him now.


    My post had a typo that I didn't see, apologies, I was very tired and stressed. It should have said ""First - when I try to record the output of my Kemper the same high gain rig seems to render in a less powerful / impactful way than that rig works live."


    I'm going to read up on your links to posts now.


    Thanks again,
    Andy

    Ha! I sure can relate to being tired, man; had insomnia since age 8. :whistling: Thank you for taking me seriously, bro'.


    The thing to understand about the various level standards is that they function perfectly between different devices of the same standard. So, plugging a DVD player into a cassette deck, with the deck's record level set at unity (no gain or attenuation), you'll be recording a CD/DVD at the level it was pressed at.


    Now, if you plugged your cassette deck or CD player into your line inputs on your interface, you'd have to crank the input on the 'face by 14dB (in theory - I've found real-world examples tend to vary a little) to achieve the same result you had with the DVD player -> cassette-deck scenario.


    Same would apply to plugging a mic into your interface at line level, only the difference would be even-greater 'cause the mic standard is even-lower in level, and so on for guitar or whatever.


    Might help if you explain it to your friend this way.

    My friend is even less technical than me, but a great guitarist and a good ear...he is about to test the way I've described....well he'll have to do it using monitoring with headphones as his speakers don't have phono connectors....but if the test works, I've got some Amazon prime mono jack to phono plug cables in my basket ready to go.


    This part if going to be long, I apologise.


    Reading those other posts, I'm still not quite there... I originally (and normally) will record using a Focusrite 2i2. It has a halo indicator (I always keep that green)


    The specs are here:


    2i2 specs


    For this piece of work we have borrowed a Focusrite 2i4. It also has halo indicators but different specs here:


    2i4 specs


    The reason for me inserting the specs is not me being lazy but avoiding missing something. I think I need to look at the instrument input gain ranges. Now on the 2i2 for instrument it is -4dB to +46dB. For 2i4 for instrument it is +10dB to +55dB.


    I generally have to turn up the input somewhere between nine o clock and midday (from memory) for the halo to light up at all (it goes green to yellow to red).


    For my Kemper, I generally record to two tracks simultaneously, one with the Rig I want (so I can hear myself playing with drive, pulling out harmonics etc) and another "raw". That is using the Git Studio output which is supposed to avoid the need for a DI box on reamp. But should I be using Git Analog?


    Now doing that, and adjusting the level on the Raw track in Reaper to where it is always in the green with the occasional foray into yellow I get a wave shape in Reaper that is very small....eg the peaks and troughs are tiny compared to the Kemper processed track which is your classic large wave form.


    So that's what I do currently. As for what I should do:


    For the 2i2 and the 2i4, how do I set the input. Just above minimum on the 2i2 might be 0dB and on the 2i4 I have no choice but to go to +10dB. On Reaper itself, what dB setting should I put for the track?


    I'm concerned about being able to raise the level of the monitoring enough to hear my unprocessed guitar at all.


    And also having enough output level to work with.


    I'm sure I'm saying something stupid and of course it would be much better if I were in front of my recording set up whilst typing, but not possible right now.


    On the upside, for amateurs such as myself, Focusrite is a very commonly used interface as is Reaper as the DAW. So hopefully this could lead to an "Idiot's Guide" to recording and reamping :)


    Thanks again,
    Andy

    Quote from andyg_prs

    Finally, for anyone, surely there is a simple way to record the raw guitar from the Kemper such that it is at the optimum level (and sound to noise ratio) for having gain etc added afterwards....whether reamping through the Kemper, a modeller, or even using plug ins.


    What is that?

    I covered that in post #s 7, 9, 11 and 15 on page 1, Andy.


    Again, forget about S/N ratio; it's literally-irrelevant here. You're recording at 24bit through modern convertors, so the noise level's gonna be around the -100dB mark. How much do you think that already-inaudible noise is going to matter once a mix is squashed down to a 6 or 10db dynamic range? Besides that, noise gates and audio-file chopping are routinely used in mixing as a matter of good practice to eliminate noise... just to be "safe".


    Quote from andyg_prs

    ...he is about to test the way I've described....well he'll have to do it using monitoring with headphones as his speakers don't have phono connectors....but if the test works, I've got some Amazon prime mono jack to phono plug cables in my basket ready to go.

    I don't understand, Andy. Won't he need those jack-to-phono cables in order to conduct the test? Monitoring isn't necessary; you simply want to see the track levels you end up with in Reaper after recording RCA out into jack in with no gain added or removed to establish whether or not we're dealing with consumer-standard levels coming from the RCA's (14dB below line level).


    Quote from andyg_prs

    The reason for me inserting the specs is not me being lazy but avoiding missing something. I think I need to look at the instrument input gain ranges. Now on the 2i2 for instrument it is -4dB to +46dB. For 2i4 for instrument it is +10dB to +55dB.


    I generally have to turn up the input somewhere between nine o clock and midday (from memory) for the halo to light up at all (it goes green to yellow to red).

    On the 2i2 unity gain is obviously at the zero mark. On the 2i4 I'd try the minimum setting, regardless of the fact that it says it's adding 10dB, 'cause that's your only option on the unit by the sound of it.


    Ideally you should run the experiment I suggested in post #15 and alluded to in the other posts I mentioned above - setting the KPA guitar-input level correctly and recording the DI output with zero gain change and making a note of the track level you end up with. I'd suggest keeping that DI track as a reference, or writing down any specifics you might forget in a text file that you keep handy for future reference.


    Only then will you know for sure whether or not the 2i4's minimum marking in fact adds the 10dB it claims, and you'll be able to compensate for it, if indeed it does, by attenuating the track level in Reaper by whatever the difference between the "perfect" unity-gain level recorded with the 2i2 and the "boosted" one from the other unit is.


    Quote from andyg_prs

    For my Kemper, I generally record to two tracks simultaneously, one with the Rig I want (so I can hear myself playing with drive, pulling out harmonics etc) and another "raw". That is using the Git Studio output which is supposed to avoid the need for a DI box on reamp. But should I be using Git Analog?

    Git Studio is not quite as pristine as Git Analogue. The former has actually been converted to digital and back again, and has been boosted to line level. This can therefore be used if you don't have "instrument" inputs on your interface, which are effectively DI's. Seeing as both interfaces do have instrument inputs, there should be no need to use Git Studio. The true DI signal is what you want unless your interface simply doesn't work with it; you'll know once you try.


    This all keeps coming back to one basic principle:
    You need to record the perfectly-levelled (for the KPA's guitar input, which means it'll be as such when it later hits the reamp input at line level) DI signal at unity gain into Reaper and play it back to the KPA's reamp input as such as your first point of call. This alone could fix all the issues you've been concerned about.


    As I said on page 1, at the very least, it should get you into the ballpark, something that can then be tweaked through minor adjustment of the track-output level (in Reaper) and the CS / RS "inversion" technique I described on page 1.


    I keep saying this, but I feel the RCA thing is what's messed everything up by throwing a -14dB spanner in the works, the last thing your DI track would need, whether it was Git Studio into a line input or Git Analogue into an instrument one.


    Please re-read my posts on this as many times as you feel necessary until you get it, Andy; I simply cannot offer anything more without repeating myself yet again, mate.


    Once you've standardised your record and replay levels (easy, really, 'cause you're not gonna touch them, are you?!), the KPA will respond to the rear (ouch!) the same way it does to the front guitar input. That is, even 'though the front input is calibrated for your low-level guitar signal, the rear is calibrated for its line-level equivalent. In spite of the "level standard" changes from the DI out through to the reamp in, the relative level of the DI / original guitar will be maintained. Obviously you'd expect the KPA to respond exactly the same way during reamping as it did to any given Rig under these circumstances.


    HTH, bud. Hang in there, and good luck!


    EDIT:
    I just remembered something you asked about a while back, Andy - the waveform size in Reaper.


    My guess is that it was small mainly because of the RCA, -14dB thing, but if you ever end up with something you can't see very-well, bear in mind that you should be able to customise the size for a track's (DI, in this case) waveform in Reaper (I can only speak for my DAW, but I'd assume this is the case for all such apps).

    Nice post, Nicky! :thumbup:


    Here's a solid vid from another member, if your buddy hasn't watched it he may wanna take a look.


    Thank you, Shawn. ;) I remember that video


    For the raw guitar signal he uses Git Studio and also tries to optimise S/N ratio at the audio interface input (adds gain).


    This is probably why he later states that the signal being sent back to the KPA needs tweaking - he's tweaked it going into the DAW and he's therefore trying to solve a problem he created in the first place, something I've been encouraging Andy not to do for various reasons, not least in order to minimise necessary adjustments later on to the KPA.


    Essentially he's having to tweak away until it "sounds the same", whereas the method I'm recommending for Andy takes all the guesswork out of it... in theory.


    I've said all I can on the subject, as I implied earlier, and I'm not going to get into a debate about level optimisation as I've said all I can (a helluva lot) about it in several threads lately, so if folks want to exercise the old-school, tape-and-analogue-console paradigm of pushing inputs to just-below clipping, I wish them luck. Each to his own, I say.

    Thanks Monkey Man / well everyone. Well, I slightly missed the point. Originally I recorded with the 2i2 and that only has jack outputs.


    At my friend's we used his interface that only had jack outputs and then went to get this 2i4 so that we could monitor the sounds together at the same time as feeding a track out for re-amping using an RCA to jack adaptor cable.


    After the exchanges yesterday I went along with an extra RCA to jack adaptor cable so that we could feed those into the speakers and use the jack outputs to see if the signal sent for re-amping was at a much higher level then previously using the RAC outs.


    I'd missed the fact that you wanted me to try recording my guitar out through the RCA outs to see if the signal was much lower.


    However, it still seems a reasonable comparison, how the raw guitar track level would vary coming from jack as opposed to RCA outs into the re-amp device.


    In either case, all experiments were pretty disastrous. The DAW seems to want to default to stereo output (which is balanced outputs 1 and 2). Changing the master output to channels 3 and 4 (to avoid the master track and the re-amped guitar coming out of 1 and 2 which we wanted to use for re-amping) just seemed to lead to feedback at any level of reamping (in this case we were using the AX8). That was just monitoring through the headphones and not even having anything plugged into the RCA (3 and 4 outputs).


    Trying to put the speakers through 3 and 4 just didn't work. The RCA outputs just wouldn't play nicely with the speakers/DAW. Not sure if it is because they are unbalanced outputs compared to the balanced 1 and 2 outputs. Or if the fact that the only cables we had were RCA to small stereo jack, then a small stereo to 1/4" adaptor. We got better results removing one of the RCA plugs, which makes sense with the mono thing.


    Regardless we couldn't re-amps via the jack (1 and 2) outputs at any level....we just got screeching. And we checked and double checked all the settings!


    I could do a better test at home with Reaper which I know a little better than Logic.


    Anyhow, going back to the original set up with the speakers in the jack outputs and the RCA cables feeding into a mono jack into either the AX8 or Kemper we got better results....whether through the front or back of the Kemper.


    I apologise for the red herring but I think the issue was the reduced level audio that the keyboard player had supplied us with for the tests that led to my first post. He had used guitar rig, then faded my level down, and when he exported the audio, it was at the faded down level. He re-shared with us the original kemper raw audio I supplied (I think it was Git Studio but I could be wrong) and it played much nicer with re-amping.


    The future:


    When I record, I use the 2i2 so jack outputs. I will read and re-read the advice on levels and experiment with re-amping audio after each section I record when I next go to record. I had spent many hours going through the official Reaper recording guides and it is a little frustrating to see that the advice might be duff. Of course I'd need to find and share the video to check I haven't just misunderstood.


    I'm sure the issues with my experiments; re-amping with RCA out are just an outlier...cable incompatibility or something incorrect in Logic. But as I use the 2i2 with no RCA outs, and Reaper, it's probably an experiment I can leave for now.


    The next time I buy an interface, I may look for one with SPDIF!


    I'll probably update this post with the video and timestamp of the instructional I used from Reaper.


    I understand why the AX8/Kemper etc don't have an audio interface incorporated, but it would be lovely, even if it didn't provide all the options a dedicated interface does. For example the Laney IRT studio I believe allows you to output both unprocessed and "through the amplifier" tracks by virtue of a single cable...so simple!


    To finish, I really do appreciate the help, and there is ongoing self education here, I can't pretend I have absorbed everything that has been said or every link that has been embedded. But I am working through them, and validating how they work for me. I am listening and respectful of your knowledge.


    Thanks again,
    Andy

    I don't have sufficient internet speed to watch those videos right now, Andy. Will get to them when I can.


    Quote from andyg_prs

    I'd missed the fact that you wanted me to try recording my guitar out through the RCA outs to see if the signal was much lower.

    I thought that this is what you'd done in the first place, which is why I kept pointing to them as a possible cause of your low-level issue. Actually, you said you did this:


    Quote from andyg_prs

    I was using a Focusrite 2i4 - sorry about that mistake. The standard jack (TS?) outputs 1 and 2 were used for the monitoring speakers. The phono outputs 3 and 4 went to a small stereo jack with a converter to quarter inch that went into the Kemper.

    There you go, and that would've explained the low-level problem, IMHO... at least, -14dB of it...


    Quote from andyg_prs

    I apologise for the red herring but I think the issue was the reduced level audio that the keyboard player had supplied us with for the tests that led to my first post. He had used guitar rig, then faded my level down, and when he exported the audio, it was at the faded down level. He re-shared with us the original kemper raw audio I supplied (I think it was Git Studio but I could be wrong) and it played much nicer with re-amping.

    Well, if he had lowered the level, that'd surely explain it too. Pumping that quiet track through the RCA's, which might well have taken an extra 14dB off that already-low signal, and then on to the Kemper, would've resulted in a ridiculously-low-level signal's entering the reamp input on the KPA.