Midi Change Issue

Quote from ToCi91

Don't want to be picky, but performance 1 slot 1 is PC#0, performance 1 slot2 PC#1 and performance 2 slot 1 is PC#5. You missed the counting from zero I guess.

The PROFILER refers to the logical range of 1-128 across the board. This applies to program changes in Browse Mode as well as Performance Mode. It also applies to MIDI banks. Consequently, while no Remote is connected Performance 1 Slot 1 displays program 1 and bank 1 in the dark box on the left.

The numeric range is 0-127. Some devices refer to that. That's why you sometimes have to deal with a gap of 1 in the world of MIDI.

Program changes are sufficient in Performance Mode as long as you stay within the same MIDI bank e.g. from Performance 1 Slot 1 to Performance 26 Slot 3. If that's sufficient, you don't need MIDI bank select. At that Slot the 128 program changes are exhausted. A bank starts with Slot 4. To load that you need to send bank select LSB 2 (numeric 1).

Quote from Burkhard

The PROFILER refers to the logical range of 1-128 across the board. This applies to program changes in Browse Mode as well as Performance Mode. It also applies to MIDI banks. Consequently, while no Remote is connected Performance 1 Slot 1 displays program 1 and bank 1 in the dark box on the left.

The numeric range is 0-127. Some devices refer to that. That's why you sometimes have to deal with a gap of 1 in the world of MIDI.

Program changes are sufficient in Performance Mode as long as you stay within the same MIDI bank e.g. from Performance 1 Slot 1 to Performance 26 Slot 3. If that's sufficient, you don't need MIDI bank select. At that Slot the 128 program changes are exhausted. A bank starts with Slot 4. To load that you need to send bank select LSB 2 (numeric 1).

just to be sure, because you quoted me: Did I wrote something wrong?

I think, Kim_Olesen was correctly referring to the logical number range starting to count at 1, because that is what we consistently do in the PROFILER universe.

Quote from Burkhard

I think, Kim_Olesen was correctly referring to the logical number range starting to count at 1, because that is what we consistently do in the PROFILER universe.

Yup.

Performance 1 slots have the midi pc numbers

1 2 3 4 5

Performance 2

6 7 8 9 10

Performance 3

11 12 13 14 15

and so forth….

Quote from Kim_Olesen

Yup.

Performance 1 slots have the midi pc numbers

1 2 3 4 5

Performance 2

6 7 8 9 10

Performance 3

11 12 13 14 15

and so forth….

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From the manual page 343:

Rig in Performance 1, Slot 1 loaded by program change 0
Rig in Performance 1, Slot 2 loaded by program change 1
...
Rig in Performance 2, Slot 5 loaded by program change 9
...
Rig in Performance 26, Slot 3 loaded by program change 127
You could also use the following formula: (#Performance * 5) - 5 + (#Slot - 1)

And that is exactly what I'm programming into my Kemper (from Cubase). Are we talking about the same thing?

Quote from ToCi91

From the manual page 343:

Rig in Performance 1, Slot 1 loaded by program change 0
Rig in Performance 1, Slot 2 loaded by program change 1
...
Rig in Performance 2, Slot 5 loaded by program change 9
...
Rig in Performance 26, Slot 3 loaded by program change 127
You could also use the following formula: (#Performance * 5) - 5 + (#Slot - 1)

And that is exactly what I'm programming into my Kemper (from Cubase). Are we talking about the same thing?

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Yes it’s just some devices have a midi value range from 1-128 while others call it 0-127. The hex values are the same.

But weren’t you also describing using a lot of Cc to change slots and performances?

Quote from Kim_Olesen

Yes it’s just some devices have a midi value range from 1-128 while others call it 0-127. The hex values are the same.

But weren’t you also describing using a lot of Cc to change slots and performances?

Okay, then the devices (inclusively Cubase in some cases) are counting different. Which hex values do you mean? Or do you mean the bit-representation in the actual midi message?

I've never mentioned to mix PC and CC. The I only use PC. Maginethat, the thread creator, said that he mixes both of them and I wrote that he should only use either CC or PC.

Quote from ToCi91

Okay, then the devices (inclusively Cubase in some cases) are counting different. Which hex values do you mean? Or do you mean the bit-representation in the actual midi message?

I've never mentioned to mix PC and CC. The I only use PC. Maginethat, the thread creator, said that he mixes both of them and I wrote that he should only use either CC or PC.

Ahhh it’s me not paying attention to who i an replying to, sorry about that.

About hex values. A hex value is a data sat of the values 0-9 plus the letters a-f. That means that there possible 16 values instead of 10. The hex dataset is what midi is based, on and actually sends. The hex dataset to select the first patch on a midi device is the same across all devices, otherwise we’d have a big problem. BUT some manufactores call it midi pc 00, others call the same value midi pc 01. It’s really an inconsistency in the naming conventions. The underlying dataset is the same.

It’s been MANY years, but i used to be able to program midi in hex values, because that was the only way to program the Prostage Autowah, unless you wanted to buy into their entire ecosystem.

Quote from Maginethat

This doesnt allow you to activate and deactivate pedals or automate anything other than Perforramcne and rig changes

You are ofcourse right. That needs a midi CC.

If you are programming this in a DAW here is a little advice. If you have quantized both Pc and Cc events to the same point, you will get into trouble eventually. Put the PC 100ms before the dedired point, and the Cc 100 ms after, and you should be home safe.

The very short explanation for this (because it has more aspects than one) is that even though the events are quantized in the DAW, both the midi buffers in the midi interface and the Kemper might prioritise the pc to come after the cc. And then the cc effectively becomes canceled out by the pc.

Another aspect is that all slot changes in the kemper (or all midi gear for that matter) has a certain latency. So while the Kemper fetch the data for the desired slot, it might do the CC first. And then again the Pc happens AFTER the Cc, thus resetting the changes made by the Cc.

So why put the changes 200ms apart? Because that is the maximum time i have measured in the kemper, for the slot change to happen.

I had to test this, because i have had a couple of costum midi boxes built, because i had special needs for things that the Kemper just can not do. And i stumbled on exactly this, and because of that i had a “midi delay” for a certain cc value build. (In my case the delay slot on/off). I wanted that slots on/off state to become completely independend of what was stored in the slots. And the only way to do that was to have a box that repeated the state it was in before a pc was sent, when a new pc was sent. BUT it was unreliable. Untill i delayed the “resend slot state” with 200ms. Then the problem was totally gone.

I hope that made sense.

In very short. You need to make sure that if a midi pc and cc happens at the same time, the midi cc is effectuated by the kemper AFTER the midi pc.And to do that, you need to send the cc a little later than the pc.

It is the nature of MIDI program changes to load programs, complete sounds, in our case Slots of Performances. MIDI control changes are dedicated to continuous parameters or on/off states of effects. So it's not either or. If you intend to load complete programs plus activating/deactivating effects within those programs you normally have to use both.

Our method to preload Performances and load Slots via control changes #47-54 is a special add-on. It has been invented to enable universal MIDI footcontrollers with memory limitations (e.g. Behringer FCB 1010 with just 100 presets and Uno4Kemper) to address the complete Performance range from Performance 1 Slot 1 to Performance 125 Slot 5. This method adds some complexity as CC#50-54 could load a Rig or trigger Morphing depending on the current state AND each simulated button push needs to send a value between 1-127 while each button release needs to send value 0 to make it work correctly. We have no reports, that these mechanisms don't work correctly e.g. by the Uno4Kemper users.

Yes, check the level of Volume Pedal in such cases, which can be controlled via CC#7.

Volume Pedal can also be linked and controlled via CC#1 (Wah Pedal). Deactivate WahPedal to Volume, if you don't need it.

Check what happens, if you switch Tuner Mode on and off via chicken head or foot button. Does the sound return? Perhaps your software is using CC# 31 to activate Tuner Mode with Mute Signal activated and forgets to leave it.

Check if active effect loops are involved and if the external gear is intact.

At which level is Rig Volume when the issue happens? You see that in Rig Settings.

Hi guys!

I'm working as a guitar tech with a band that uses Kempers and MIDI automation at live shows. All the players have their own unit + spare. The problem appears with every unit.

We have this exact same problem. It's happening with multiple performances randomly. High Gain sound is suddenly clean, wet lead is dry, AC sim is distorted. Even The Kemper front panel and remote is showing the correct slot and sound + effects, the audio is wrong.

We use PC to call the performance, but after this problem appeared, we have tired also CC #47 #50-54 with no difference.

When the issue is on, manually moving to next slot and back to the original, the sound is correct again.

This is a massive problem since we have a stadium concert coming in a month!

Hope someone will figure out what's the reason. Thank you for your help and it's very comforting to hear that others also have faced the same issues.

Heidi Meri