Posts by SteinbergerHack

Quote from Mark99

thank you i don't know well what is a FRFR and i don't know if the kemper cabinet is one of them

"FRFR" is a marketing term for a PA-style monitor cabinet. "FRFR" supposedly means "Full Range Flat Response", so the intent is to act like a very good studio monitor, PA system, or home stereo - very accurate reproduction. In reality, most cabinets that claim to be "FRFR" are anything but.

In my experience, the best way to achieve this is to purchase the best self-powered PA wedge you can find/afford. The pro audio world has been building monitor cabinets for decades, they have the technology and costs well sorted out, and the performance you get very closely follows the price point. In contrast, most of the cabinets marketed as "FRFR" are low-end PA cabinets that have been re-badged, and they really don't sound very good. This is not universally true, as there are a few at the higher end of the range that are relatively accurate...but most are not.

In the end, though, think in terms of balancing what you spend on the monitor with the Kemper. The KPA is a top-tier, no excuses digital amp. It should be paired with a monitor of similar quality, and that's not something that you get for $500.

Quote from Job Posthuma

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I know, but that’s not what I’m after. Lets say, for argument sake, I want to able to use 5 effect configurations on 4 amps. With “old school” 4 channel amp and effectunit...I got that with 9 swithces. If I were to have the same options in the kemper, id need 36 presets, and id be switching banks like a madman. If I wanted to change my “clean sound”...id be editing 5 rigs.

Thats a lot more complicated then managing 4 amp sounds and 5 effect presets.

The result of what I’m proposing is switching effect chains like you would in an amp + effectunit set up.

The way to get there that I propose is basically....allow the user to group i.e. a drive preset, a verb preset and a delay preset in a [give it a name] and assign a CC+ value to that [give it a name] to trigger load and activate whatever is in there. So its based on using how users can store presets at this moment....group IDs of those in a table/file...and recall those on CC+value trigger.

OK, to respond to the OP, it seems that it CAN be done, sort of, but it would require a MIDI controller and you'd still have to program each individual rig combination.

You could use a separate performance page for each FX preset, with the 5 rig slots used for the different amps/profiles/gains.

Ex:, Slot 1 as JC-120 Clean, Slot 2 as Fender Super Reverb slight breakup, Slot 3 as a dimed Plexi, Slot 4 Bogner XTC Blue, Slot 5 XTC Red. Copy these 5 plain profiles with no FX across all performance pages.

Next, build your FX presets. Put them in all 5 of the rig slots for a given performance page.

Now, set "Performance Load" to "Keep Slot".

In this config Selecting the slot with CC50-54 changes your amp but leaves the FX. Selecting the Performance Page with CC47 changes the FX but keeps the amp (same slot).

You still have to build them all, but having a no-FX performance page template and FX presets makes it fairly easy to do. 128 performance pages covers a lot of ground.

Quote from timo

Replace „automatically“ by „immediately“.

Thank you - that's very helpful.

This will make programming a controller MUCH easier! I had been leaning towards a different digital rig, but this pushes me back to the Kemper.

Bumping this one again to see if there's a way to get clarity on how CC47 and the "Performance Load" setting interact.

Quote from Burkhard

What is hindering you to organize your 4 amps in 4 Performances and the 5 effect configurations in the five Slots of those Performances?

Performances n is amp n, and Slot m is effect configuration m. You then use the Rig Buttons to change the effect configuration and the Up/Down button to load the amp. MIDI wise that can be achieved with CC#47 to preload the amp and CC#50-54 to load the effect configuration.

There are three ways in which this approach adds significant complexity for the user.

1) What if you regularly use more than 5 FX presets? My standard pallette is about 30. With your approach, to go from FX 1 to FX 30 I would have to scroll through 30 performance pages, then select the rig slot. That is not a viable use case in live performance.

2) Every individual combination requires that you build a unique rig. This exponentially increases the amount of work required in comparison to an amp and FX units, where a single FX preset or change is immediately applicable to all amp gain settings.

3) With MIDI, your approach would require that the MIDI board read the current state of the KPA before sending any commands. Without knowing what setting it's on when a button is hit, it cannot determine the combination required to make a simple change like "change from compressed funk to shimmery chorus clean" without risking changing to the wrong gain setting - a nightmare during a performance.

Quote from Sollazzon

yes burkard ..sure, but it's not what he's looking for.

I guess he's trying to complicate a bit more the normal/usual rig managment.

As far As I've understood he would like to be able to assing a certain group of Fx to a certain #CC and to be able to recall it independently by the rig he's using.

From a use perspective, it's making it less complicated, not more.

If you have, say, 5 basic profiles and 20 FX presets, do you really want to have to remember the order of 100 complete rigs? It's far LESS complicated to be able to select 20 FX presets and 5 profiles, then mix and match them at will.

Yes, I can read that too - BUT - how does this interact with the "Performance Load" setting if it is set to "Keep Slot"? It seems clear that it works the way you describe for "Pending", but it's not clear for "Keep Slot" or "Slot 1".

From the manual on page 250:

Quote

The “Performance Load” parameter in System Settings determines what happens, as you step or scroll through Performances via Remote, PROFILER Stage or MIDI. The default setting “Pending” means that the current Rigs stay loaded and the PROFILER keeps waiting a few seconds for your Slot selection. “Slot 1” and “Keep Slot” load these Slots automatically.

"Automatically" is unclear in its meaning. Do you send a slot # and it gets ignored, or does the CC47 command function immediately without requiring a second command? This is also clearly talking about scrolling through performance pages, which is not what CC47 does, so it's really ambiguous in the way it describes the behavior.

The follow-on question is about latency. Trying to use PC commands I found a latency for shifting between pages that got progressively worse as the jump was farther. Does this approach reduce or eliminate that latency?

OK, here's another way of thinking about it:

Could I use a MIDI controller to change performance pages directly (CC 47) and use the "Keep Slot" parameter to force it to stay on the same rig # within the performance? Then, my 5 rigs slots become the gain selection, and the performance pages become the FX presets.....? Id' still have to build each individual combination, but I could copy the Performance pages, then copy the FX presets over them.

Any idea whether or not this would work?

Q: If I set the Performance Load parameter to "Keep Slot" and send a MIDI CC 47 command targeting a new performance page, does it immediately load the rig in the currently selected slot of the new performance page without requiring a second command? Is there any significant latency with this command?

Quote from drog

you could do 3 of the 4 as effects button combination. If you use morph you could probably do all four. Keeping in mind your have eight slots for effects and you would need to have the same family of effect in a couple of slots To make your combinations. .

This doesn't give the flexibility to select the profile independently from the FX preset. When you select a new rig/profile, you will get the FX tied to that rig, not the FX preset you were already on.

Quote from drog

It might be easier to make 2 - 4 performances with your Effects sets.

I tried that and ended up with some audible disasters - the time lag in changing between performance banks is not acceptable.

Quote from drog

It would depend on how you want to access them.

I want to select the profile independently from the FX preset. I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand. I'm also not sure why this would be difficult from an implementation standpoint.

Quote from drog

But you could always get a 90,s Quadraverb and run it in the loop

I have many rack FX units, and I could do this exact thing.....but if that's the best option available, I simply won't go back to the Kemper, hence the question I asked here.

Quote from drog

You have 4 stomp slots, 4 effects slots. You can save all four effects in the “stomp or “ effects” banks as a set that you can recall into any rig. This saves time from having to build it each time.
You turn off and on the effects separately or in groups with the four effects buttons. You can also put the same effect in multiple slots if you wish (keeping in mind you have eight spots total). to allow for variation.

Are you suggesting that I could set the 4 buttons as:

1) A light compressor, light plate reverb, and a chorus with 1.2Sec cycle

2) Heavy compression, phase, mid boost

3) 60msec delay, medium spring reverb

4) 130 msec delay, heavy plate reverb, chorus with .8 sec cycle

And then select these 4 presets independently from selecting the profile?

Understand that what I'm trying to do is no different from what a 90s era FX unit like a Quadraverb would do.

Quote from Wheresthedug

Whether ots worth ot or not is personal preference bit it’s cerainly cheaper than trying to find an old Steinberger with a Transtrem. Ned managed to do zero latency transposing way back in the 80’s without tying up an effect slot ? Damn, I wish I could afford one of those things now.

I still have my original GL2TA, and yes, the TransTrem comes in VERY handy.

Quote from DonPetersen

PEFORM mode would work in a way I guess.

1 performance = 1 amp/cabinet

5 slots = five fx setups

etc.

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Yes, and that's WAY too limiting for the way I use my rig. That approach is what convinced me to drop the Kemper and go back to my old amp about a year ago.

The amp-based rig I currently use gives me one-button access to 6 amp/gain settings ( 3 channels plus individual boost), and 10 FX presets via a MIDI pedal. That's 60 individual sounds that I can get to with zero latency and two button presses or less. I can move one bank up or down with FX and get another 120.

One thing that's important to note is that I only had to build 10 FX patches and set up 6 amp channel setting to get to 60 sounds.

Now, if I could directly access 4 or 5 profiles and another 5 FX presets INDEPENDENTLY, that would get me into the ballpark.

Think of the feature request as being able to mix and match amp profiles and FX presets in real time with the Remote.

Quote from kevinduren

So to cut to the end, the Kemper Remote is not going to be able to be used 1:1 like your previous rig. So if that is a deal breaker, I can save you a lot of time.

If you do want to get as close as possible:

You will have to assign each group of effects to a different button on the Remote. Just to be clear, you can assign multiple effects to each Remote button and you can toggle them all on/off or you can toggle some off and some on.

For example,

1) The tuner can be controlled with the tuner button on the remote, you can set it to mute in the menu.

2) Slapback delay w/ a touch of reverb – assign the slapback delay to X and touch of reverb to MOD. Save them to be off initially. Assign them to Remote button I.

3) 3 dB boost – Not sure yet if you want this pre or post, but for a volume boost only, assign the Pure Booster to REV, save it to be off, and assign it to Remote button II. For a gain boost, assign it to ABCorD.

4) Etc. Etc.

And any of these can be controlled by Morph. For instance, you can set the Pure Boost to be on with a volume of 0 and then Morph to your desired volume.

In your above scenario, you would have to have the following effects saved in ABCD and/or X, MOD, DLY, REV:

Slapback Delay

Touch of Reverb

3dB Boost

Mid-boosted EQ

Reverb

Prominent Delay

Reverb

Compressor

Upper Mid Boosted EQ

Compressor

Phaser

Subtle Chorus

Not-so-subtle chorus

Light Delay

Light Reverb

2dB Boost

Heavy Mid Boost

Delay

As you can see, there are 8 places to assign effects in each rig. Assuming you need each of those reverbs, delays, EQs to be different, then you would need 18 places to store them. That would be a minimum of 3 rigs to accommodate your effects. There are 5 rigs per performance.

So again, if that is a deal breaker, we can stop now.

Respectfully, I can tell that you don't want to read the manual and spend time figuring all of this out, and that is perfectly cool: you just want to get to work! It might be much more expedient to let me know very specifically where you want the effects (pre or post stack) and what buttons you want them assigned to on the Remote, and I can set up and send you a Performance that is a close as possible to what you want.

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I actually DID read the manual and spent a LOT of time trying to get to where it would work for me, and hit the wall.

The use case that gives me the biggest challenge is theater work (pit gigs). These books often call for very rapid changes with wide variations in style and instruments. It is not uncommon for me to end up using 3 or 4 gain settings, two instruments (i.e. electric and 12-string acoustic), and 3 or 4 different FX patches in a single song, independent of gain changes.....and the next song will be different patches and different sounds.

Understand that what I'm trying to do is meet the needs of the gigs that I play. To be completely honest, every other theater player I know uses something other than Kemper, but I really like the sounds that the KPA provides....it just seems very hard to work with to get to the rapid number of options that we need for this type of work.

From what you describe, it sounds like I could maybe get there by programming a unique performance for each and every song, but that's adding a TON of work for every gig, when my goal is to simplify my system. If Kemper could re-think their MIDI approach to allow direct access of FX presets independent of the profile, it would be an fantastically powerful tool, but 5 rigs in a performance is just too limiting, based on my experience using it in this environment.

I'm not averse to using a different floor device to control it, but please understand that I have done my research, I am asking for something very specific for a very specific reason, and I am trying to find out f there is a work-around that is not documented so that I can effectively use the Kemper product in my application.

Quote from kevinduren

Hold down the button you want on the Remote and then press the buttons for the effects you want assigned to that button.

You can also do this without the Remote connected by going into the Rigs menu, page 6/6.

OK, that will active or deactivate a given effect within the existing rig. How can I call up a different FX preset without changing rigs?

Quote from JAC

If you are using the Toaster or Rack you can already browse and save and load presets of the Stomps and Effects sections.

Long-press the Stomps or Effects buttons and use the browse knob to see existing presets, or the Store button to save a new one.

Sure. Now how do I set up the Remote FX buttons to call up an entire effect preset and not just one specific module?

I think I'm still not making myself clear.

When I talk about sets of FX presets, I mean completely different FX patches and groups of FX. My primary MIDI bank is set up as the following 10 presets:

0) Tune/Mute (routes to a rack-mount tuner).

1) Slapback delay w/ a touch of reverb

2) 3 dB boost

3) Mid-boosted EQ with reverb

4) Prominent delay with reverb (think China Grove intro)

5) Compressor with upper mid boosted - modern country

6) Compressor/phase for 70s-style funk

7) Subtle chorus

Not-so-subtle chorus, light delay, light reverb, 2 db boost

9) Heavy mid boost with delay (hair metal lead).

For my amp, I have 6 gain selections.

Thus, setting aside the tune/mute function, I have 54 unique combinations that can all be accessed with one or two pedal presses at most - 10 completely different FX programs and 6 different amp setups. This doesn't requires building each individual combination, but just building the FX portions and the amp portions, then being able to randomly combine them.

One page up or down and I have another 10 completely different FX patches, for another total 60 sounds, but only having had to build (and maintain) the 10 FX patches.

Does this explain it better?

Bluntly, the reason I ask is that I tried using a Kemper for a theater gig just pre-Covid, and I found the performance mode to be prohibitively limiting. It felt like I was building WAY too many rigs just to copy over a FX setup to a profile with a different gain setting. I also ran into timing problems when moving between performance pages to get to the different FX stack-ups.

I want to swap over to digital for all the reasons we all understand, but it seems that the complexity of having to build a complete new "rig" just to change between relatively standard gain settings or to change a delay time setting is a bit excessive.

Quote from kevinduren

Let’s see how close we can get to what you want:

Will you be using more than one slot in the performance? If so, we will make use of the different slots in a performance. And that may be the only way this is possible.

Will you need any other effects at the same time as (1-6)? If you only need reverb in 2 and 6, we will work with that.

Which effects do you want pre-stack and which post-stack?

Remember that you will have 4 stomps available pre-stack (A, B, C, D)

And 4 effects available post stack (X, Mod, Dly, Rev)

And any of the effects or stomps can go in any of the slots

Once I know more specifically what you want, I can guide you and maybe even make a performance that you will only have to swap out the stack and effects to get what you want. (I would use a free profile for the stack, of course.) That may be more efficient that trying to type out every minute step.

I am going to assume that you can set the parameters of the chorus, delay, reverb, compressor, phaser, and eq since there will be considerable personal preference regarding those settings.

And also, while I am more than happy to guide you with this, (and actually looking forward to the challenge) don’t forget that you can always refer to the manual and video tutorials. The explanations in the manual may make more sense to you or at least reinforce what I am going to communicate. You can keyword search the manual.

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I think I'm still not making myself clear.

When I talk about sets of FX presets, I mean completely different FX patches and groups of FX. My primary MIDI bank is set up as the following 10 presets:

0) Tune/Mute (routes to a rack-mount tuner).
1) Slapback delay w/ a touch of reverb
2) 3 dB boost
3) Mid-boosted EQ with reverb
4) Prominent delay with reverb (think China Grove intro)
5) Compressor with upper mid boosted - modern country
6) Compressor/phase for 70s-style funk
7) Subtle chorus
Not-so-subtle chorus, light delay, light reverb, 2 db boost
9) Heavy mid boost with delay (hair metal lead).

For my amp, I have 6 gain selections.

Thus, setting aside the tune/mute function, I have 54 unique combinations that can all be accessed with one or two pedal presses at most - 10 completely different FX programs and 6 different amp setups. This doesn't requires building each individual combination, but just building the FX portions and the amp portions, then being able to randomly combine them.

One page up or down and I have another 10 completely different FX patches, for another total 60 sounds, but only having had to build (and maintain) the 10 FX patches.

Does this explain it better?

Bluntly, the reason I ask is that I tried using a Kemper for a theater gig just pre-Covid, and I found the performance mode to be prohibitively limiting. It felt like I was building WAY too many rigs just to copy over a FX setup to a profile with a different gain setting.

I don't think I explained my request very well, and I don't think LOCK accomplishes what I'm asking for.

Imagine two things:

1) Changing the amp/cab profile without changing the FX.

2) Changing all of the FX to a different preset without changing the amp/cab profile.

Now, imagine a list of amp/cab profiles mapped to one set of buttons on the Remote, and a list of FX patches mapped to another group of buttons on the remote. If you have 5 profile buttons and 5 FX patch buttons, you have instant access to 25 combinations with no more than 2 button presses - but you only had to build 5 amp rigs and 5 FX patches to have all 25 options.

This is how my "old school" rig works - an amp pedal with six channel/gain selections, and a MIDI controller that gives me ten FX patches. That gives me 60 possible combinations, but I only had to program 10 FX combination patches.

Does this make more sense?

I can't figure out ho to get a Kemper to do this without tossing out the KPA FX completely and just using the Kemper for the amp and using a separate FX unit for the FX patches....which defeats the purpose of carrying a single rack unit, and requires me to use two separate floor controllers.

Would it be possible to separate selection of the amp profile from selection of FX presets?

I think it would be really powerful to have the ability to change the profile independently from the FX presets. This is similar to the way a traditional amp works, where you have an amp channel switcher that works separate from the FX patches.

As it is, when you change rigs it changes all of the FX, and you can't change the selected group of FX and settings without changing to a new rig.