Posts by stormhenge

Quote from StumblinMan

I guess my big question is: Why would anyone pay a licensing fee from a manufacturer to profile their amps when they can currently profile that same amp for free, tweak the name a little, and sell it with zero overhead from some other company taking a slice?

Amp innovations are few and far between these days. They add technology to simplify the recording process, like direct outs, IR's etc, but there hasn't been a genuinely "innovative" circuit in a long time. It's all the same diodes, caps and transistors etc. just lined up in different orders. Shall we get started talking about how two of the same model amps won't even sound the same? Licensing and DRM for "official" versions won't change the fact that the profiled amp, one owned by Joe Schmoe and the other by Bob Schmob, mic'ed the same, same settings, will still sound different.

Will the manufacturers profile their amps with pedals in front? Will they offer licensing deals to the pedal manufacturers as well? How will they divide the cut? Speaker manufacturers onboard as well? What about the cables? I only want my profiles with Mogami cables if I'm paying a premium.

I can agree with a profiler wanting to get paid for their efforts profiling amps, and I've found several excellent free ones as well. I'm actually astonished you wouldn't sell your profiles if they offer something better than what's out there. If you've built a better mousetrap, why not profit from it? If it's that good, you will make money, as most folks on this forum are always willing to pay for a quality product. They already forked out the money for a Kemper, so what's a few more dollars for your amp profile? You're currently leaving money on the table. I'm sure you'd have some unscrupulous folks that would share it with close friends, but making SOME money by putting it out there has to be better than making NO money sitting on your hands waiting for a system that, frankly, isn't going to happen in this ecosystem.

Adding an extra middleman to take a cut when there are multiple manufacturers of different products currently NOT having to pay for the rights to call an amp by it's real name seems cumbersome and foolish. This adds an extra layer of complexity and raises costs to the consumer. Neither of which is a positive.

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You make several excellent points. Following coffee and contemplation, I will maybe, possibly address them...lol

It's an eye-opening experience. Just that feeling when you flip the switch and it actually makes noise. Then to learn how little changes in the circuit affect the tone, and then the long journey to figure out just what it takes to make it sound exactly the way you want. It's as enlightening, and challenging, and never ending as learning to play the guitar itself.

Quote from Wheresthedug

I fully appreciate that there could be a license agreement but I still don’t see any benefit to users or Kemper so I can’t see any reason whatsoever why Kemper would want to go down that route. It just looks like a lose/lose deal to me.

I understand your point. I disagree. but I understand.

Am I completely off base to say that of the participants in this thread I'm the only one who has built a guitar/bass amp? (Ordering a kit and assembling one counts too. I'll allow it... lol)

Quote from Wheresthedug

unfortunately a lot of the rubbish os from commercial profilers who would be able to implement DRM signed profiles in the proposed closed ecosystem. I still can’t see any argument to add DRM to the KPA.

You'd still have those who could pay a license fee to the manufacture for the right to profile and distribute, so you'd still get the same paid products you already have, but the manufacturer is still retaining value, and is still incentivized to keep innovating.

Quote from yeky83

But again, I question the notion you put forth that the likes of Yamaha and Roland will grab market share away from Kemper just because of some DRM features in some future profiling device... like you've said, they actually have to make something better, faster, cheaper, and more feature rich, and that's what sells a device.

Discretion prevents me answering the former part, I think you're astute enough to gather what i mean.

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I think the aspect being missed here is that DRM invites a different avenue to the table. Dr Z. started making his own because the public ones were not representative of his product. A lot of what is out there lives in this arena. I've only found a handful free public profiles that were worth a damn. Understanding how to pull a profile is as much science as it is art, as most of us have learned since attempting to produce them. Even if just for fun.

DRM creates an environment where the people who know exactly how these amps are supposed to sound and feel because they designed them, along with modders and hobbyists like me that know how to alter them to make them sound completely different from spec so as to create different tones can be assured that the time and effort they take to deliver something really special retains it's value. And insures that users are delivered an experience that lives up to the quality they've come to expect from those manufacturers as well as the modders.

I love the sound and feel of a great tube amp. We all do. it's why we invested in a Kemper so we could have the promise, of spending $1700 to own not one tube amp but several... correct? But profiles that accurately deliver the sound and feel of the real article are very hard to find. The market is completely oversaturated. And not to stray too far off topic, but this is a problem with popular music as well. It's hard to find great music out there for the exact same reason. We've democratized the creation and distribution of music ,which I'm very much in favor of. Well done. -- But the byproduct is.... a LOT of mediocrity.

Quote from yeky83

Apparently she's trans, so that makes your compliment rather complicated.

Whether or not I'm perceived as being a woman, and salient, and/or in need of an asterisks in that regard as I am indeed Trans, is a giant rabbit hole I don't think any of us wants to venture down. I appreciate those with the necessary sense of honor to realize that trying to discredit or devalue someone for whatever attribute they are in possession of whether it be race, gender, etc really does more to discredit the person making the qualification than anyone else. So thank you, your comments are appreciated.

But maybe I can take this opportunity to momentarily express what so many don't understand about people like me.

Trans is but a tiny aspect of who I am as a human being. It's not the defining characteristic of who I am, what I do, how I think, or what I care about. So to attempt to qualify someone's capabilities whether that be in a positive or negative light because they are Trans, is like trying to say that someone who has a freckles on their skin can't dance. It's utterly irrelevant.

But I think the point you were trying to make was to say that cisgendered women aren't salient and capable. that my abilities to hold my own must bear the aforementioned exceptions. This, again, is another thorny rabbit hole I don't think any of us wants to tumble too far down. But sufficed to say, you've never met the women in my family, whom I don't feel the need to qualify, except to say; you wouldn't want any of them sitting across from you at a game of strategy, in any kind of legal or business negotiation, or even a political discussion, but you'd most certainly would love having my mom as your investment advisor. They are all my heroes. And intelligent and salient doesn't even begin to cover it. They are goddamn goddesses in their own right. (quite frankly; if I'd been less stubborn in my youth, I'd have set myself up quite nicely by now. But daughters often times need to find their own way. I regret nothing. It's been an adventure. C'est la vie.)

Quote from yeky83

Interesting, gotcha. What do you see that makes you say it won't be able to compete?

Also then, why would you list out Roland and Yamaha as companies able to compete in this product market in the next 2 years when they haven't been able to for the last decade? It's not like Roland and Yamaha haven't tried with digital amp modeling products, they don't do nearly as well.

They're not implementing anything wildly different from what Kemper hasn't already instituted. To compete it has to be better, faster, cheaper, and more feature rich. Yeah it has a cool interface. yeah it's supposedly both a Kemper and a Fractal... and it has an app. It's just a half measure. It's cool, mind you. But I don't see them grabbing much market share.

Quote from yeky83

You don't have to look to the "next 2 years" or some supposed insider knowledge about a friend's project lol. There's a "profiler" about to be released imminently called the Quad Cortex from Neural DSP. You show yourself to be pretty clueless about this product category and the conversations around it.

I know all about the Quad Cortex, I just don't have any faith in it's ability to truly compete, from what I've been seeing.

When I say the decision will be made for them (and it will) here's what I mean:

There's, at minimum, 3 good candidates to enter the profiling game within the next 2 years. Roland, Yamaha, and UAD - Kemper won't be alone for long, because profiling is a huge new market, and right now they're the only game in town. Kemper got there first, but I can speak from experience, getting there first and having a superior product feels fantastic when the money is pouring in, but it doesn't last long if you don't evolve because everyone else catches up, and they do it faster than you anticipate. (a story for another time - has nothing to do with music or sound - it's not really important.)

There's at least one company (maybe, or maybe not, listed) I know for sure has a working profiling amp that they've had in development for the past 5 years. Their tech works exceptionally well (reportedly), and they're currently refining their ecosystem, OS, and end user experience. They are in no hurry to rush it to market until the whole package - out of the gate - is a total slam dunk. [I know this because I have a friend there working on the project, and he likes to facetime me at 3am when drunk and talk about things he shouldn't.]

• They're looking to totally dominate the profiling landscape within 18 months of launch. They are absolutely going to have a closed system - one that operates in the ways similar to what I've already detailed.
• And here's the kicker: 3rd party manufacturers won't have to port existing algorithms, or code new algorithms to run on their OS, because the platform will run it's FX engines as zero latency AU plugins, meaning you can run; not only profiles created on the platform, and profiles purchased through the platform store, but amp emulator plugins, and any AU based FX plugin you already own - running like insert slots on a DAW, programmable, and switchable from the pedal based surface. Similar to the Stage and Helix.
• As well as a mobile app for full GUI control of all onboard settings as well as naming functions too detailed for the inefficient button and wheel/arrow combo right there on your phone or tablet.
• The whole thing has been running fairly stable on a custom array of outboard RISC based chips (idk the exact details on that part) while they've been waiting for an ARM chip fast enough and robust enough to make the whole thing work in a cheap, energy efficient as well as real estate efficient form factor.
• And with Apple's new M1 breakthrough, it won't be long till there's a non-apple, multi-cored ARM chip on the market capable of powering the whole unit. - It'll be affordable too, possibly a $999 list $799 street price point. They're coming for it all.
• I don't know the full details on inputs, outputs, fx loops, midi, ADAT et al, - except that based on the company's history it'll have them...lol

Kemper will likely sit and wait to see if the new closed system device is viable and finds traction.

Meanwhile all the major amp makers will strike official licensing deals as will the boutique makers and before long the new device will be eating a major market share. If Kemper doesn't have a comprehensive plan in place for DRM on the current open system, or an alternate plan for a closed system, they'll have to rush one into play, and likely get it wrong. It'll be wonky, need several firmware updates to get it all up and running correctly, irritating users, all the while forced to sit and watch as their devices, ecosystem, and market share are quickly gobbled up while they try to pivot to get a competing device to market. All of our devices will be devalued for re-sale. Kemper will have a legion of frustrated users with de-valued machines, and a likely desire to migrate. Some current users will adopt the new platform AND hold onto their Kemper, But the number of new incoming customers will drop drastically in favor of the cheaper more full-featured competition. Profit margins will drop as current users find it's cheaper to adopt the new device than to purchase the new Kemper device whenever they're able to get it to market - possibly have to institute a trade-in upgrade program to retain users,, and adopt a new completely closed system of their own in order to be able to land the necessary licensing to implement a similar user experience.

This is the future, This is the free market. This is the fallout.

You can have an amazing piece of tech. You can be the first one to arrive. but the prevailing theme in tech is: evolve, or die.

So why do I care? I sympathize with Kemper. I had a great idea. I got there first. I was wayyyyyy ahead of the curve. And I let it all slip away, because I got complacent, and I didn't see the curve flattening. cuz it was flattening behind closed doors, so fast, that by the time I'd realized I'd been out-flanked, it was too late to react. I support their products and applaud their innovation, and wish to see them continue to flourish. but the curve is flattening...

Quote from sambrox

So a little more is cool, then?

No one seems to be arguing for upgrades to stop, though. You're more than willing to accept the inconvenience because of everything amazing that you get out of the product. So it's not a reason it's an excuse.

It seems what everyone is really worried about it the prospect of free profiles going away. That's the underlying fear. Not inconvenience. but the perpetuation of free stuff. And don't get me wrong, I'm not some Ayn Rand, capitalist extremist. I love free stuff as much as the next person.Softube's Saturation Knob is one of my favorite things on earth, and It's free. But I never take issue with my paid Softube and UAD plugins, because they're worth it.

And if the whole world were Japan and the idea of not paying someone for their creations were fundamentally unthinkable; a "pay what you feel" model would be amazing. But the rest of the world is currently morally bankrupt when it comes to art and commerce, and I'm saying we can do better. As artists, we deserve better.

Quote from Andrea L

It's not about being defensive in favor of the current model.

It's more to be against a system (DRM) that does nothing against those who illegally use a product (profile, audio file, ebook, Photoshop, Protools, etc.), but creates inconvenience to the legal owner who have paid for the product.

I'm saying with blockchain it would effectively eliminate those you refer to. AND That's a really weak excuse. This forum is littered with literally hundreds of examples of Kemper inconveniences regarding firmware alone. Licensing, if done properly would be as seamless as it is on Eventide. It's literally NEVER an issue.

Quote from Wheresthedug

The problem with DRM is that it is a nuisance for people who wouldn’t break the rules anyway and the people who would break the rules will always manage to find a way to circumvent it. Just look at the number of cracked versions of things like Protools etc that are in circulation.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but on this I disagree. Blockchain cannot be beat. It cannot be fooled. If implemented properly platform side it can effectively eliminate piracy with regards to purchases, licenses, even music ownership. (Yes, that last one is EXTREMELY complicated due to the nature of the medium. If it were simple, the RIAA would have already figured it out. But they're working on it.)

Quote from sambrox

It’s funny that you demand a DRM system be put in place on the background of an amp you built on the back of someone else’s circuit. You wouldn’t be in a position to demand this if it wasn’t for the free sharing of schematics on the Internet.

Patent expiration. Not to mention the Marshall circuit and damn near every amp you've ever played is basically a clone of the Fender circuit. But you make a decent point.

And I haven't profited off any of my builds, but if decide to go down that path, and if doing so required I pay a license fee, I'd gladly do it.

Still curios why people are so defensive in favor of the current model. These types of systems that take advantage of creatives remain in place because we allow them to. Not because they need to. I don't understand why individuals consistently operate from a place of unworthiness. This idea that if we demand meaningful change to institutions such as streaming, or any free distribution models, our overlords will somehow effectively punish us. Demand something better. You're worth it. Your work is worth it.

Quote from lightbox

The day you come to a venue with a rented Profiler and you want to put your DRM'd profiles for the gig, you'll think again about who works against whom

There can be contingencies for this as well. Eventide once again leads in this. I can sign into someone else's H9 with my ID. I have to add the device temporarily to my account, and have them temporarily delete it from their's... so THIS is not a good solution. BUT it is possible

The Kemper is essentially a computer, so the ability via the thumb drive port to use an i-lok type solution, or something none of us are even thinking of yet, could be implemented. It's not impossible, nor really that expensive a game to get into.

But I think it's irresponsible to not take this course of action, and TBH, dishonorable on the part of Kemper, and all of us who have used free profiles are complicit in this. Even me. and even more so if we don't stand up for what is right.

Quote from Wheresthedug

However, distributing profiles themselves without ownership or permission from the owner is both illegal and immoral.

That's all i'm saying.

...and there's a system in place to handle it. I suggest you use it. And please point me in the direction of the system that exists for those who've had their amps profiled and distributed without their permission, while you're at it.

Look I paid the same admission price as everyone else. It took me months to pay off my Kemper. I love it. It's great tech, it simplifies my life. It allowed me to salvage a broken Ampeg of mine that had an a amazing and unique sound, but kept cutting out live, and turn it into a profile that I use for everything.

The amp was fixed and it sounded like every other one of it's kind, so I told the tech to put it back the way it was. Because that was "my sound" it was unique. People would come up after shows and say, "I have that exact same amp. And it doesn't sound like that! How are you doing this?" And I'd shrug and say, "I don't know. I'm not doing anything. That's just how it sounds." And so it is now back to it's non-functional state, but the pre-amp works fine out of the DI, so I profiled it. And now I have my unique sound again, in a form factor that fits into a backpack and saves me using all of my pedals except for one.

So I'm not vilifying Kemper users, or Kemper for their tech. I love this tech. But it is also operating in a gray area, and is allowing people to capture something unique and make it available for use worldwide, for free, or even for a fee. But there's literally nothing stopping me from taking my purchased ReampZone profiles and just emailing them to somebody for free, Or making them downloadable. For free. I could literally take all of their excellent hard work and distribute it for free under the current model if I were that kind of a person. And, there is no recourse for them. Also, no recourse for the little guys, like Suhr, Fortin, etc. People who put years of R&D, insight, cleverness, and love into creating something special, and someone taking and distributing a copy of that thing for free. Because, it's not currently illegal. Immoral, perhaps, but.not illegal.

I think we owe it to ourselves, and to the people who have created the amps that we love, to make a little more effort towards protecting that, which with love, they have made available for us all.

This one? And of course you have proof? I can't just go around altering my posts for just anyone who simply makes a claim.

Seems ironic to make a claim of IP ownership in the midst of an IP ownership discussion. One in which I seem to be alone in defending your right to do exactly this. This Digital Rights Management of "your" image. Please use proper channels. I'm sure you know what those are. Let's see how long that takes, and how effective it is. I mean this image had to have been online somewhere, right? It's not like I stole it off your hard drive and uploaded it. How did I get it? Why was it online, out there just floating around the web - free for anyone to view, grab, use? How did it get there? What was it's original intention? What is it worth to you? You can of course see where this is going right?

Quote from ST

Interestingly, I searched Rig Exchange, but could not find any mention of "Stormhenge" or "Superthump".

Food for thought.

and you won't... until there's DRM

lemme know which picture is yours along with your copyright notice, and gladly I'll remove it.

There are over 100 Tower Records locations still active and thriving in Japan, but nowhere else on earth. I think one needs to ask why that is?

Why, culturally, we're so ready to accept "free" as a business model for art, but for everything else our capitalist ire is instantly raised - straight up - at the mere thought of such a ludicrous model being applied to any other facet of commerce. Even when Lars tried to save us all from ourselves, he was demonized. Why do we as creatives fight so hard to perpetuate systems that work against our own best interests?

Just food for thought.