Difficulty making transition to frfr rig

  • Hi. New owner /user here. Currently play a Marshall jvm410h with either an orange ppc212 or a Marshall 1960 cab. I am looking for others experience in moving away from the whole cab thing to frfr and any suggestions you have to make that transition easier. I do own the powered head and have been trying to make it sound good through the cab but I think I should be focusing on the frfr monitor first.


    Thanks for any hints or ideaa from those who maybe have gone through a similar thing.


    Steve

  • Ultimately everybody here have done the transition, some more, some less.
    The ultimate recommendation I have for you: use a DECENT FRFR cab, not cheaper than the Yamaha DXR 10 price range.
    If you go with cheaper/inferior ones your experience will be likely disappointing.
    This is because in the market of FRFR cabs there's a lot of rubbish when you buy cheap in the cheaper price range, contrary to guitar cabs where a Palmer or Harley- Benton cab with a Greenback will sound decent at least.

  • One other thing - you hear an "in the room sound' with a regular cabinet because it is not aimed directly at your face. You are hearing room reflections, along with the sound of the cabinet.


    When you first switch to FRFR, if you aim the cabinet right at your face, like a vocal monitor, the room reflections will disappear. I suggest placing the cabinet so it is not aimed directly at your head. You may even want to start with it where your guitar cabinet would normally be placed.

  • I found this transition very difficult at first, too. So much so that, having bought a Yamaha DXR10 , I found I was unable to use it for gigs and bought a power amp and guitar cab instead. I was - and continue to be - very happy with this set up. However, I continued to experiment with the FRFR and have now found that I'm equally happy using either. In fact, I played my most recent gig using just the Yamaha DXR10 and was very happy indeed.
    I don't really know why! It's either because my ears have gradually become accustomed to FRFR, or because I've got to know my Kemper better, or finally, because I have refined my choice of profiles through trial and error.
    I suspect it's a combination of all three factors.

  • I'm still one foot in the pool, one out. I'm happiest when using my 'extended range' Matrix NL12 or a regular guitar cab. I like how I can hear more of the differences between profiles using the NL12 with Cabs on, but I never got used to a full-range PA speaker, though I admit I never had enough faith to invest in a solution that is of a standard befitting of the Profiler. One day I hope to be able splash the cash on a CLR Neo, but I fear my new guitar GAS might always win that war... :whistling:

  • I struggled for a few gigs. But after getting those first few "adjustment" gigs under my belt I was able to get my Kemper > DXR10 rig sounding amazing. It just took some tweaking of profiles and mild EQ adjustments to get things sitting really nicely in the mix.


    Now when I go to a show and someone is using a regular guitar cabinet it sounds super harsh.

    Husband, Father, Pajama Enthusiast

  • I too have the powerhead and have been using it for gigging, recording and home practise. When I first got it, I was a bit dissaspointed with the overall tone from the cab. I use a 1960a and for a while really struggled to find a tone I truly loved. First gig was a bittersweet affair, the foh sound was simply immense, but on stage using the cab I didn't cut through the mix at all, i had made mistakes on the output section settings so was at a disadvantage anyway but the whole experience forced me to question the way i approached setting up a profile. This led me to start using the kemper through my home cinema amp, although far from frfr, it did give me more of an idea how my tone sounded and allowed me to develop better setup methods. These methods have translated to how I setup my cab sound now and I have really started to fall in love with some of my patches. But as much as I love my cab tone thesedays, I still want a frfr system, preferrably a monitor I can use at my feet so I can properly hear how the profile should sound and to allow me to tweak knowing I am hearing something close to the foh tone. I am not sure how much help this will be to you as I think we want the same thing but the first thing I would do is work with the cab for a bit and see what you can come up with. If you use high gain profiles, like i do, send me a pm and i can send you a few patches i use through my 1960a cab so you can see if they work for you.

  • I sold my CLRs. Yep... Didn't think I ever would, but the minute I listened to the FRFR Firehawk 1500 monitor in's I realized I didnt need them.

    If you use FRFR the benefit of a merged profile is that the cabinet is totally separated in the profile.


    For my edification only... ;) Kemper/Axe-FX III/ Quad Cortex user

  • let me rephrase this.... Never in my life have I played a gig without a monitor in front of me, or IEM's... Not once, not ever... I'm astounded by how many posts I see like this were people have never played with hearing their guitar thru a monitor... Is this the norm for a lot of you? How do you sing? How do you hear the rest of your band and what's going on? I just feel if you are playing live snd don't even have monitors/never heard your guitar in a monitor, you have a whole lot of other things to be worried about other than what your guitar siunds like thru a monitor... Just my opinion..

  • Pure cab helps the hesitance as well. If you can, play along with a music CD and your kemper through an FRFR setup. Your guitar through the Kemper will sound very similar. The cab sound feel is definitely something that makes you feel warm and fuzzy, but having the same sound that the audience hears can do the same and knowing what is being heard helps you focus on the specific sound you are really looking for.

    "More Guitar in the Monitors" :thumbup:

  • let me rephrase this.... Never in my life have I played a gig without a monitor in front of me, or IEM's... Not once, not ever... I'm astounded by how many posts I see like this were people have never played with hearing their guitar thru a monitor... Is this the norm for a lot of you?


    I'm aware of many players (specially in the USA) that always have their (guitar) cab behind themselves even if they have a monitor in front. Basically, they want to hear their guitar coming from the backline.

  • I've always used a vocal monitor in front of me, too. But, when I have guitar in my vocal monitor, I have it mixed at a lower level than what I hear from my guitar amplifier. I have the rest of the band in my vocal monitor on medium size stages, and also in the side wash monitor on my side of a large stage.


    Yes, backline amplifiers are very popular in the USA. This is a leftover from the days when the only thing in the PA was vocals, and is "the look" of traditional rock band stage set ups.

  • Yes having a backline amp is popular, If not the norm here, that is true. It's also the norm to always have a monitor upfront, that's why I'm not understanding this whole "transition to FRFR" thing... In fact I wish that term would just go away, it confuses more people than it clarify's things... It's not that complicated... It's a PA speaker... The end...


    also while it may be common to have a backline amplifier, more than 75 percent of the time, even when running direct to FOH but using my 2x12 as a monitor on stage for some feel, the amp is immediately tturned around at the request of the FOH... This is the norl in almost every venue i play... Hence again, why it's the norm to have your guitar coming out of your monitor/ IEM's

  • It's not that complicated... It's a PA speaker... The end...


    The complicated part is that for many guitarists, it completely replaces the sound source they are used to hearing. They are suddenly hearing their guitar, from a close distance, aimed right at their head, instead of from a distance, behind them or to the side.



    the amp is immediately tturned around at the request of the FOH.


    That's why I always sidewash my amp - it has never been a problem. Although, once, I was actually asked if I would rather backline it. I told the sound engineer i preferred the guitar be in the PA :)

  • The complicated part is that for many guitarists, it completely replaces the sound source they are used to hearing. They are suddenly hearing their guitar, from a close distance, aimed right at their head, instead of from a distance, behind them or to the side.




    That's why I always sidewash my amp - it has never been a problem. Although, once, I was actually asked if I would rather backline it. I told the sound engineer i preferred the guitar be in the PA :)


    Sure i understand that... I'm just amazed at how many people live apparently haven't experienced this I guess, that's all... I also can NOT stand the BS marketing behind this coined new term "FRFR"... The Friedman monitor for instance...it's a damn PA speaker guys... They can spin it out however they want, it's a PA monitor... And this is why I think it makes "newbies" confused... Just my opiniom again... I also have yet to see a guitar player show up to a venue with their own ground monitors... That's a new one to me too haha... But hey to each his own...that's the houses job or your production teams job, and even some of the smallest sized bars I've played generally have more than decent monitors ( QSC , Yamaha , Ev etc)

  • Also... The entire point of "FRFR" is to have a close to as possible reference of your actual tone out front... If the Friedman and other monitors somehow make their PA monitor "better" ( COLORED) compared to the actual tone coming out FOH, then what's the point!?! Just my observation... Rant off

  • I've played over a thousand shows ranging from small bars to 60,000-strong crowds and I've NEVER got on with how my guitars sound in the monitors. Add to the fact that I also have my own vocal in there and a whole band mix and things start to get unpleasant, in my opinion. Having the guitar in a separate wedge, as per "FRFR", might help things, but I'm just more comfortable with the sound through a more traditional cabinet, I guess. The Kemper has changed things for me, though. The last show I played was in a set up with two guitarists. It was a fairly small country/folk album launch party, where we were to play 8-9 songs from the album in a 150-ish capacity hall. Everyone was playing on backline, only vocals were sent through the PA. The other guitarist was playing through a small 1x12 Fender combo, I don't recall which. He had it close to full whack and it was ice-picky as hell! My main clean sounds happened to be from Bert Meulendijk's pack that evening (his Princeton, I believe) through my Ambrosi ATM70 and NL12, and though my guitar was clear and chimey as a bell, it was silky smooth in the top end and not harsh in the slightest. Win!